What is HAARP?

[elderbear]

If you don't know what HAARP is, google it. Recent discussion of Tesla technology, UFO abductions, and conspiracy theories got me interested in what y'all know (or think) about HAARP.

 

If you want multiple answers, choose your most important in the poll, then comment about them all.

[Elladan]

I think it's a premiere research facility as you put it... Think of it, these advancements would help us communicate through thick layers of god-knows-what-kind-of-ionic-gas. It'll be of use on Titan and Mars... when we're going to colonize them!

 

I believe it is money well spent.

The increase in resources from colonizing some planet or moon anywhere will give us plenty of opportunity to solve some more problems of this world.

 

With the greatest respect,

Elladan

[Elladan]

BTW, elderbear, you're questioning suggestively.

To place HAARP in one row with mysterious, often negatively seen things is in fact stating that it is one weird thing itself!

 

Look, the name is bad. But the research is good. ;)

 

Ell.

[VonHelton]

I believe it is money well spent.

 

......And like everything else, it won't be used anytime soon.

 

NASA sat on fusion & ion engines for years before putting them to use on a few probes.

 

.....As far back as 1950.

 

Someone else reminded them in the 60's......I reminded them in the 70's. It's a good bet someone else reminded them in the 80's & 90's.

 

....Yet we still don't have fusion or ion powered starships, and we probably never will.

 

However.......

 

Now that private enterprise is getting interested, we may get to go before we're too old to care.

 

Between us, the Russians & now the Chinese, we've sent out enough probes to fill up Rhode Island.....It's time to build a Starship.

 

Imagine all the data we could accumilate with a fully functional science vessel.

 

......Imagine a version of the Hubble Telescope mounted dorsally.

 

Had we lauched a spaceship in 1965 instead of yet another probe, they'd have went to Saturn, got all the data & more besides, and returned by now.

 

......I think it took 13 years to get to Saturn, 13 to get back.

 

There are plenty of deralict sea vessels, planes, trains, etc to provide the metal, IMHO.

 

The ship could be as pretty as Enterprise A, and in modular pieces that are shot up on conventional rockets. The pieces could then be assembled with a few spacewalks.

 

The question that puzzels me since the 70's is..........

 

.........why didn't we?

 

:stare:

 

 

[afransen]

There are positively huge logistical problems involved in keeping humans alive and healthy on a spacecraft in open space (beyond Earth's protective influence). A manned spacecraft sent to Saturn would have arrived full of corpses....

 

I think the only manned missions we should be considering are one-way Mars colonisation missions, and perhaps attempts at establishing a base on the moon.

 

Either would be hideously expensive. A Star Trek-esque vessel sailing around the solar system would be virtually impossible for quite a long time.

[VonHelton]

There are positively huge logistical problems involved.

 

The Voyager probe made it.......So did the other probes. Are you saying I'm too stupid to avoid a few rocks?

 

......in keeping humans alive and healthy on a spacecraft in open space (beyond Earth's protective influence).

 

John Glenn seems healty to me.......He was exposed to far more radiation that we will be.

 

A manned spacecraft sent to Saturn would have arrived full of corpses.....

 

HUH?? :stare: Radiation DECREASES the farther you are from the sun!

 

I think the only manned missions we should be considering are one-way Mars colonisation missions' date=' and perhaps attempts at establishing a base on the moon.[/quote']

 

Yes, we should establish colonies on the Moon & Mars, but we should explore the galaxy as well.

 

Either would be hideously expensive. A Star Trek-esque vessel sailing around the solar system would be virtually impossible for quite a long time.

 

The cost of 3 ball teams here in the USA would've paid for everything, with money to spare. And, once we begin mining the rich metals in the asteroid field, we'd have an endless supply of metal to make ships with.

 

The secret to prolonged space flight is to make the ships as big as possible until faster engines can be developed. Ships that contain a whole section of the ship devoted to plant life, and that allow the crew to excersize vigorously 2 times a day.

 

As for the excuse that fusion & ion engines are slow, we just add more engines! 2 fusion engines, 4 ion engines & 2 conventional rocket engines as backup.

 

From 1960 until now, we've thrown away enough metal to build 6 Galaxy Class starships........Easy.

 

....Most of which is rotting at the bottom of the ocean.

 

:stare:

 

We can make a huge aircraft carrier, or a Titan Submarine, but we can't make a starship? Sorry, I'm not buying that one.

 

:rolleyes:

 

We still have several Iowa Class Battleships that would make cool starships. We do just like they did in the cartoon Star Blazers......Cut the backside off & mount the engines, replace the water tight bulkheads with air tight ones from a submarine, and convert the main guns to lasers.

 

Or, we can live in fear like you suggest.........

 

:stare:

 

 

[elderbear]

Official HAARP Home Page

 

Might be useful in the discussion ...

[psheldrake1]

I watched the Hitchhikers guide last night. The Vorgon ship flew right over and they didn't blink. The same will happen with the real ships. If they want you to see them, you will. We as a people are to dangerous to them. We kill ourselves for no reason.

[GigamanD87]

All that "research" stuff is the cover for the world largest mind control divice... Or not... Who knows?

[Elladan]

All that "research" stuff is the cover for the world largest mind control divice... Or not... Who knows?

 

And what if it is?

Who cares anyway? You'll be quite unaware of it...

Or else your awareness will have a reason, for the machine wouldn't allow it otherwise.

 

So, I don't think it matters that much.

 

Regards,

Ell.

[psheldrake1]

All that "research" stuff is the cover for the world largest mind control divice... Or not... Who knows?

Too true. That's how Bush got back into power. But it doesn't work as well as he wanted.

[daffydk]

The cost of 3 ball teams here in the USA would've paid for everything, with money to spare. And, once we begin mining the rich metals in the asteroid field, we'd have an endless supply of metal to make ships with.

 

The secret to prolonged space flight is to make the ships as big as possible until faster engines can be developed. Ships that contain a whole section of the ship devoted to plant life, and that allow the crew to excersize vigorously 2 times a day.

 

 

We can make a huge aircraft carrier, or a Titan Submarine, but we can't make a starship? Sorry, I'm not buying that one.

 

:rolleyes:

 

We still have several Iowa Class Battleships that would make cool starships. We do just like they did in the cartoon Star Blazers......Cut the backside off & mount the engines, replace the water tight bulkheads with air tight ones from a submarine, and convert the main guns to lasers.

 

 

I like your ideas. They are already having a hard time building the space station... Which I might add is sorta like a star ship. All they have to do is put faster engines into it so it can fly but otherwise its the size more than a football field with almost everything it needs.. although I dontk now if it can have a place where to grow food or produce its own oxygen. But oxygen and food is not the problem since both can be stored in great quantitites.. One liquid oxygen tank along with liquid nitrogen can produce 21%oxygen for years for a few people.

 

I think they can use the space station to launch the first starship but it will be decades from now! Unlesssss someone can figure out how to make million ton starship assembled on ground to go to space with something like anti gravity device.

[Elessar]

First off hello i'm new to the site...

 

I believe wholeheartedly we need to get off this damn planet as soon as possible, however the dream of building a "million ton starship" as it was quite accurately put, is a century off if not more...Sadly the realistic truth is that space exploration will not be a political priority until it HAS to be one.

 

One thing I think could be beneficial for the US space industry is that China is beginning its own space program and plans to send men to the Moon...Not that I care personally, but with the new Fundamentalist/Unilateralist attitudes in the US (I'm from the US) I think it could ignite a new "Freedom Vs. Commies" spacerace...if not on the surface obvious as "we must beat the commies" maybe just unconsciously people and hence government will start caring about space technology.

 

If funding stays where it is today or increases only slightly without any monumental change, I think the best we could hope to see in the next 50 years is possible a next-generation deep space probe to excel past Voyager 1's distance from our sun, and possibly the beginnings of permanent science stations in orbit and on the Lunar Surface. As much as I'd like to see a Manned Mars mission, I seriously doubt it's going to become reality before 2060, at least according to NASA's drawing boards it's not even hypothesized as far as 2020..and there'll be a slew of rovers/comm satellites/surveyors/etc sent to Mars b4 that happens.

 

Oh and on topic, I don't know anything about HAARP i'd only heard of it :cyclops:

[afransen]

"The Voyager probe made it.......So did the other probes. Are you saying I'm too stupid to avoid a few rocks?"

 

Voyager was mechanical, not organic. Humans are the weakest link in a manned mission, not the hardware.

 

"John Glenn seems healty to me.......He was exposed to far more radiation that we will be. "

 

John Glenn was never in open space. He was always within the protective influence of Earth's magnetosphere which deflects a great deal of solar radiation. Now, humans on a spacecraft travelling from Earth to Mars would be exposed to MUCH more radiation, and in the event of something like a solar flare, humans would die unless they have a conveniently big block of a very dense material like lead to hide behind--the lead would absord a great deal of the radiation.

 

"HUH?? :stare: Radiation DECREASES the farther you are from the sun! "

 

Trust me, humans couldn't live exposed to 8 or 9 years of solar radiation without some VERY impressive shielding. Yes, radiation decreases the further you are from the sun, but in open space (ie, away from Earth), solar radiation is much higher than it is in Earth orbit.

 

"Yes, we should establish colonies on the Moon & Mars, but we should explore the galaxy as well."

 

Baby steps... baby steps. Now, if we managed to invent a warp drive (faster than light), maybe we could talk about exploring the galaxy..... Given foreseeable technology, simply exploring the inner solar system will be a pretty impressive feat.

 

"The cost of 3 ball teams here in the USA would've paid for everything, with money to spare. And, once we begin mining the rich metals in the asteroid field, we'd have an endless supply of metal to make ships with. "

 

Ahhhh, no. If we needed to launch all the parts of such a spacecraft into orbit, a million metric tonne spacecraft would cast $10 000 / kg * 1 000 000 000 kg = $10 trillion dollars just to launch into orbit, never mind cost of technology, materials, and construction. A bit more than a few sports franchises....

 

"We can make a huge aircraft carrier, or a Titan Submarine, but we can't make a starship? Sorry, I'm not buying that one."

 

Well, believe it or not, but it's actually pretty hard to get into space, whereas it is actually rather easy to sail on (or under) the ocean. Even aircraft carriers and submarines are huge undertakings, costing billions of dollars--very few nations actually have them, and the US is the only nation to really have them in substantial numbers.

 

"Or, we can live in fear like you suggest......... "

 

I'm not suggesting we live in fear, but in reality. Sorry buster, but you're living in fantasy-land. Trek is fine entertainment, but humanity being able to doing anything remotely like Trek is a long, long, long way off, assuming faster-than-light travel is even possible (and not all that difficult).

[VonHelton]

Sadly the realistic truth is that space exploration will not be a political priority until it HAS to be one.

 

.......And once we find out the sun is going supernova, it's too late.

 

:stare:

 

 

[VonHelton]

John Glenn was never in open space. He was always within the protective influence of Earth's magnetosphere which deflects a great deal of solar radiation.

 

You're forgetting the men who walked on the Moon & who circled the Moon.

 

You're also forgetting the Cosmonauts we have up there now.

 

....Why aren't none of them, past or present, exhibiting signs of this "massive doses" of radiation?

 

Surely you're not claiming the Moon is somehow in our atmosphere, are you??

 

:stare:

 

To hear you talk, those men should be a puddle of liquid by now, but they aren't!

 

 

[elderbear]

I watched the Hitchhikers guide last night. The Vorgon ship flew right over and they didn't blink. The same will happen with the real ships. If they want you to see them' date=' you will. We as a people are to dangerous to them. We kill ourselves for no reason.[/quote']

 

Rarely do people kill others w/o reason - only the truly insane do that. More often the reasons are pretty stupid and pointless once you escape the individual's belief system.

 

I just saw Stealing Sinatra, the true story of a real-estate investor who was down on his luck, washing down percodans with whiskey, and heard God advising him to kidnap Frank Sinatra, Jr. in order to get money for more investments (in West LA real estate and a few choice stocks). God's conditions were that he not harm anybody and that he repay the ransom after his investments matured.

 

He had a systematic business plan that was quite rational, within his own delusional system. But from outside the system, the entire story was madness ... a pathetic tragic comedy.

[elderbear]

Sadly the realistic truth is that space exploration will not be a political priority until it HAS to be one.

 

.......And once we find out the sun is going supernova, it's too late.

 

:stare:

 

 

Fortunately, Sol's hydrogen fusion process is supposed to continue for another 5 billion (or million million for the English) years, give or take. I suspect that if homo sapiens sapiens can stay viable as a tool using species, homo sapiens futurus will have figured out how to reach other living spaces long before that.

 

On the pessimistic side, however, read Jared Diamond's (the author of Pullitzer winning Guns, Germs, and Steel) Collapse. It is not outside the realm of probability that we will deprive ourselves of resources before colonizing new planets. I just finished his chapter on the collapse of Easter Island. It's not a pretty picture. And it may well generalize to our complex modern society.

[elderbear]

John Glenn was never in open space. He was always within the protective influence of Earth's magnetosphere which deflects a great deal of solar radiation.

 

You're forgetting the men who walked on the Moon & who circled the Moon.

 

You're also forgetting the Cosmonauts we have up there now.

 

....Why aren't none of them, past or present, exhibiting signs of this "massive doses" of radiation?

 

Surely you're not claiming the Moon is somehow in our atmosphere, are you??

 

:stare:

 

To hear you talk, those men should be a puddle of liquid by now, but they aren't!

 

 

He said magnetosphere, not atmosphere. It's a huge difference! I suggest the following link for EVERYBODY on this site ... it's a great way to learn about the space environment, discover what plasma is, learn to tell sh*t from shinola about magnetic fields, etc. I'm reasonably acquainted with space sciences and I found new info here:

 

Earth's Magnetosphere, plasmas, and other wonderful things space sciencey ...

 

The earth's magnetic field protects fairly well out to about 60,000 km. This is enough for the shuttles, the space station, and even geosynchronous satellites. Heading out to the moon, however, one become unprotected. A strong CME, properly aimed, could have fried the astronauts on any of the lunar missions.

 

Another problem is galactic cosmic rays - near relativistic nuclei of modestly heavy atoms. While the particle flux is not intense, collision of these ions with a spacecraft shell creates secondary radiation within the spaceship. Over time, total dose would be devastating to any forms of life onboard, as well as micro-electronics.

 

As an example, consider the 256 kilobit DRAM chips used in computers in the mid 80's. A single electron striking the memory array would randomize the state of multiple memory cells. A shower of neutrons and alpha particles (electrons) would be created each time a cosmic ray particle strikes the metallic body of a spacecraft. Think of the engineering problems in developing reliable space electronics.

 

Some power chips contain parasitic transistors that can be "latched-up," causing chip power to be shorted to ground. This results in the release of smoke from the chip, after which it no longer works. This can be worked around, and some exotic chip designs have been developed to prevent this SEU (single event upset) latch-up.

 

Eventually, though, total dose will damage the circuitry on a computer chip and it will no longer work. Thus, a powerful magnetic shield/field or a deep/thick metallic shield must be used for a mission of any significant length or electronics and life forms onboard will become inoperable.

 

This is probably not impossible, and a number of potentially viable theories have been advanced (magnetic containment fields for fusion power serving double duty as a spacecraft magnetosphere, putting engines onto an asteroid and burying passengers and control systems deep within it). But in order to solve these problems, a huge amount of funding is necessary and there probably won't be enough to wage a war against phantom weapons of mass destruction AND develop long-distance space travel for humans.

 

Cosmic Ray Impact

[elderbear]

The atmosphere shields us from cosmic rays about as effectively as a 13-foot layer of concrete, yet a large proportion of cosmic ray particles manages to send fragments all the way through it. Some have much, much higher energies, though as one goes up in energy, the numbers drop drastically. Cosmic ray ions at the top of the energy range produce in the atmosphere showers of many millions of fragments, covering many acres, and their more energetic fragments register even in deep mines, a mile underground. Relatively few of the particles are so energetic--an experiment might register them once a week--but their existence is a real riddle. How can a single atomic nucleus gain such extreme energies?

 

Read the answer here!