Is DS9 a copy of Babylon 5?

[theaveng]

EDIT: Please see post #9 (my post) for updated info..

 

The facts: - J. Michael Straczynski gave the B5 series bible to Paramount in 1991

- Paramount did not buy the series

- then suddenly a B5-clone was announced in 1992. Deep Space Nine.

 

Was DS9 a stolen idea from Babylon 5/JMS?

 

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TRIVIA:

 

Back in the 1970s, Harlan Ellison and Ben Bova sued Paramount for a similar situation. They'd shopped a series to Paramount based on their short story "Brillo", about a robot policeman. Paramount turned it down, and without skipping hardly a beat, put into production...FUTURE COP.

 

Bova & Ellison won their suit against Paramount.

 

troy

[BarneyCletus]

The only real similarity was that they were both on a space station. They have nothing else in common. The reason Paramount probably passed up on B5 was that they already had a major sci-fi franchise.

[mmsock]

Did DS9 rip-off B5? Of course it did, just nowhere near as good as the original...

[CrazyMan]

They may have gotten the idea from B5 but the rest of DS9 was all Star Trek.....B5 was a good show also, I liked it.... :o

[TFMF]

DS9 is really good - my favorate ST sereis - I deffinetly don't think it was a clone of B5 as when thinking of a new ST series the producers thought that a space station might be a better setting for the series.

[Annika]

I'd never seen B5 until I watched the pilot last week.

I knew there had to be a reason why I liked it... :D Now I'm definitely going to watch the rest too.

 

[GeneralLee]

My guess is that since Deep Space Nine aired in 1992, that it (DS9) was already in the can and in the production stage by 1991. Tho, I had never given this any thought before.

 

Perhaps Paramont was influenced by JMS's ideas. Not sure if anyone knows that for sure.

 

In any event, I like how things turned out, as both shows, are awesome.

[Centurion]

There are obvious similarities: both series were based on space stations; the Defiant and the Whitestar were introduced at the same time (if I'm not mistaken); both series dealt with war (Dominion/Shadow) and so on.

 

I like both series though. :)

[theaveng]

My guess is that since Deep Space Nine aired in 1992....

No, you messed up the timeline:

91 - JMS leaves Babylon 5 Bible with Paramount

92 -

93 - First episodes of DS9 on tv. So paramount had nearly two years to copy ideas from the Babylon 5 Bible.

 

 

 

Here's a crosspost from the Usenet:

> Both have space stations on the edge of Earth/Starfleet space.

> Both are headed by a Commander, not a Captain.

> Both Commanders were involved in a space battle they lost, although the war was won.

> Both Commanders are considered religiously important by another race.

> Both series have shape shifters (modified/dropped from B5 after DS9 went into production).

 

Being a fan of both shows (#1 and #2 all-time favorites), and watching both at the same time, it often felt like DS9 was merely copying what B5 has already done earlier:

- B5 had a war break-out between the major races.

- DS9 followed suit.

 

- B5 did computer imagery (instead of ship models).

- Circa season 5, DS9 bought B5's computer images company, and then DS9 tossed the models and did computer imagery too!

 

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The most amusing was Babylon 5 did a "Earth vs. Earth" civil war...

... and then the next year DS9 copied the idea.

... they even used the same actor as the rebel leader!

 

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Oh well. Like I said, I enjoy BOTH shows, but it often felt like I was watching twins. I can fully believe that DS9 was cloned from the Babylon 5 Bible left with Paramount in 1991.

 

troy

[maverick]

DS9 is really good - my favorate ST sereis - I deffinetly don't think it was a clone of B5 as when thinking of a new ST series the producers thought that a space station might be a better setting for the series.

 

 

great minds ay? ;)

[TFMF]

Yep - certainly paid off

[Marcroft]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Dukhat

 

DS9 - evil Cardassian prefect that oversaw the Bajoran occupation/became religious pah'wraith emissary

B5 - Religious cast and leader of the minibari federation?

 

That is an obvious one missed

 

Then there could be the similarities between the Narn and the Bajoran - two races who are dealing with still being in contact with their former oppressors - namely the Centarui and the Cardassian's.

(Although is that a case of B5 nicking from Star Trek - as that is something that was set up in the Next Generation. - Although that episode S5e3 was aired in 1991 - so did they have the B5 bible by then and were the producers thinking about DS9 and future plots in Season 5?

 

As for the WhiteStar and the Defiant - personal taste - but I prefer the Defiant. For some reason I just think a ship that looks like a turtle would win against a ship that looks like a chicken. (I like them both though). But the Defiant looks tougher - whilst the Whitestar is more graceful

 

Re Borg War and Minbari War that had both survivors being the commanders of their respective stations, I wouldn't call Worf 359 a war - that was a battle, and both events are of a completely different nature - so I wouldn't really use that as a good comparison.

 

re special effects - could also be Star Trek catching up with the times - Star Trek always used Models - and won many a prize for its effects works - but they look dated to some of the CGI rendered work that can be done - (although the early Voyager Badlands CGI sucked - the DS9 revamp much better). Plus you can do the effects work quicker in CGI then if you could via models. It was a forced logical step, and what best CGI effects company to buy/use then a rivals who had already done the most work in the field?

 

Re actors - same actor for similar type role - only actors can get away with that - but that would be like saying that B5 nicked Andreas Katsulas or Patricia Tallman (who had previously done many a stunt work in TNG).

 

But if you think of it - JMS goes to Paramount. Paramount probably said rework it for Star Trek Universe (which would or may have meant major script changes). Or they said bugger off.

 

Powers that be in Paramount decide that the concept is good - and they have a really good idea of the other story that is drafted out - then they hear Warner has taken the JMS show - so they hasten production on DS9,

 

There are elements of the show within one another - both ways.

But DS9 had far more episodes then B5 - and its major war only really kicked off once B5's was finished.

 

Take both for what they are - good Sci-fi shows that complement one another as opposed to fight.

 

Re JMS's 5 year story drafted out - find it hard to believe to be honest - but I haven't seen the bible so will keep as open a mind as possible. But Season 1 of B5 is quite over the place if you look at it - and don't get me started on Season 4 and 5.

 

But take each series for what they are. I enjoyed both - and have them on my shelves which I revisit regularly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[theaveng]

Re JMS's 5 year story drafted out - find it hard to believe to be honest - but I haven't seen the bible so will keep as open a mind as possible.

 

The Bible only included the pilot episode and the characters' descriptions/motives. So Paramount could steal the initial Setup, but not the whole story.

 

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The 5-year arc consisted of a notebook that sat on JMS' bookshelf. Inside was a detailed description of the 5-yr plot, and an outline of 2000 years (1000 years both ways). That's the usual practice for writing novels (creating a history of your fake universe), and since JMS called B5 a "novel for tv," it fits.

 

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And finally, I consider season 4 to be the best year ever produced:

- end of the Shadow War

- Revolution on Minbari prime

- Sheridan turning to earth to free his home

- Birth of the galactic alliance

 

Everything that happened in years 1,2,3..... death of the earth president, the coming of shadows, the destruction of the Minbari government..... nearly all the loose threads are tied together in season 4.

 

Brilliant.

 

troy

[BarneyCletus]

It's just a matter of great minds think a like. Can't think up enough stories set around a station?...get a starship. Sci-fi a little boring?...throw in some religion.

 

I've just been watching all of TNG too and it plainly sets in place characters and races in DS9 well before it began.

[Marcroft]

The End of the Shadow War, was in my opinion, glossed over very quickly - 6 episodes of season 4?? esp after a two and a bit year build up - and especially given the fact that the war spans thousands of years.

 

I realise that Warner had pulled the plug and Season 4 was supposed to be its last season - but that was a little disappointing. It would have been nice to see it played out as it was intended.

 

That left a weaker season 5 in my opinion, esp with regards to the Drakh.

[TheWind]

If I recall correctly, I remeber reading about 1993 that B5 CGI was made using imagine & a cluster of amiga's, while DS9 used alladin 4d at least for the rendering of the series entrance.

 

As for similarities, of course there're between the 2, probably ds was influenced by the ideas put by JMS, who recently also voluntered himself to take a new shot at a start trek -probable the best move that paramount could ever do to maintain the franchise at a level-.

 

Anyway both series were good.

 

As for the 4th & 5th seasons of b5, warner fucked up pulling the plug making the end of the shadow war so weak, and the 5th season was more a prolonged epilogue & presentation of the universe for B5:Crusader..

 

[Marcroft]

Yeah - other then Babylon 5 every other spin off attempt has flopped - don't even get me started on Crusade - thank god it was only one season long. The only good characters was the techno mage and the thief. All the others had about as much charm as the underside of a slug.

 

Star Trek definitely needs a new direction, but not from JMS. Leave him with his one sci-fi success shall we and move swiftly on.

 

 

[subspatial]

im still waiting for Captain Wesley & The Traveller series .. :)

[dabrood]

I've just been watching all of TNG too and it plainly sets in place characters and races in DS9 well before it began.

I think he has a point here.

[MindTrick]

subspatial said:

im still waiting for Captain Wesley & The Traveller series ..

 

 

There's a disturbing thought.