Is DS9 a copy of Babylon 5?

[TheWind]

To me the main problem with crusader it's that it was conceived as a 5 year series and they just cut it down ehen it was begining to get interesting.

As for "legends of the rangers" the issue is that it dosn't fit much with JMS, it's argument is mainly an action series that I doubt JMS can get it right he should focus on strongh story telling & character building.

A series set about the time of the telepath wars could have been the right decision, rather to make a somewhat forced crusader..

 

 

[theaveng]

I agree on Crusade being better than most people think.. I've read the un-filmed scripts, and the show was about fighting the Shadow minions (drakh, et cetera) and uncovering the secret behind the Technomages.

 

Crusade never had a chance to tell its story. If you judged Babylon 5 on the first 12 episodes, you would think B5 was crap too. (In fact, I did...I quit watching!)

 

If I recall correctly' date=' I remeber reading about 1993 that B5 CGI was made using imagine & a cluster of amiga's, while DS9 used alladin 4d at least for the rendering of the series entrance. [/quote']

??????? According to the "Making of DS9" published by paramount, DS9 used hand-built models. The same is said on the DVD commentary.

 

They didn't switch to computer graphics until season 6.

 

troy

[theaveng]

I've just been watching all of TNG too and it plainly sets in place characters and races in DS9 well before it began.

 

NOPE. The TNG set-up happened in mid-season 5, 1993, almost *2 years* after Paramount was handed the Babylon 5 bible (1991).

 

 

 

The End of the Shadow War' date=' was in my opinion, glossed over very quickly - 6 episodes of season 4?? esp after a two and a bit year build up.[/quote']

If you read JMS' messages, he says *nothing* was changed with season 4 except:

- he deleted the stand-alone stories (like Niel Giaman's Day of the Dead)

 

- so he could move episode 503 to 421.

 

That's it. Nothing was squashed. Everyone likes to blame WB, but the truth is that JMS intended year 4 to be a tense year from day 1. He calls it B5's best year.

 

.

 

Also I think it's funny when people say the time between Sheridan's strike against the Shadows (episode 321) and the end of the Shadow War (406) was too fast. A close friend of mine has the exact opposite reaction - stretching! He thinks the pace is waaaaay too slow.

 

IMHO I think it's perfect:

- Sheridan strikes the Shadows

- The Shadows get angry & invite him to either join or die

- Sheridan discovers the secret:

- (the vorlons/shadows are manipulating the younger humanoid races)

- And then he declares an ultimatum - leave this galaxy, because we refuse to be your puppets

 

It's a perfect science fiction ending.

 

troy

[Centurion]

I agree on Crusade being better than most people think.. I've read the un-filmed scripts' date=' and the show was about fighting the Shadow minions (drakh, et cetera) and uncovering the secret behind the Technomages.[/quote']

 

I liked Crusade as well, but the biggest problem regarding its cancellation is that it left too many questions unanswered, thus preventing the continuation of the B5 saga. :(

[bbbb]

Yes.

[theaveng]

Yes.

 

It's a shame that Sci-Fi Channel didn't have enough money. They *wanted* to buy Crusade and continue the story, but they were already funding Sliders, Farscape, First Wave, and Outer Limits.

 

They literally had no money to fund B5 Crusade.

 

troy

[Relentless]

I consider this thread to be the kind of thread that would try and get someone angry and annoyed.

 

I think the only clone of anything is the person who started this thread. Perhaps he's a clone of a prankster heh.

 

I just dont like this thread try not to take everything personally I just .... should avoid gossip/cowardly threads like this where you can't ask upfront the creaters first but then you have to speculate with more doubters/speculators.

 

Just seems like a collaberation of gossip-hippies :-p

[TheWind]

If I recall correctly' date=' I remeber reading about 1993 that B5 CGI was made using imagine & a cluster of amiga's, while DS9 used alladin 4d at least for the rendering of the series entrance. [/quote']

??????? According to the "Making of DS9" published by paramount, DS9 used hand-built models. The same is said on the DVD commentary.

As I said, I was referring to the series entrance, the entry titles nothing else

 

[theaveng]

Again, according to Paramount's "Making of DS9" the entire series was done with models (even the intro). Which is believable because the *original* opening was nothing but static shots of the station, and a hand-drawn animation of the wormhole.

 

And TNG, was completely and totally models + hand-drawn animation.

 

.

 

JMS' comments (where he describes how he sold Babylon 5 to Paramount - they rejected it - and then he thinks they copied his work to create DS9) can be reviewed at http://www.jmsnews.com

 

And no, I'm not trying to start a fight. As I've said *several times*, I think DS9 is the second best science fiction ever to grace the tv screen. I would not attack something I love that much.

 

troy

[Marcroft]

I still think they are both good series.

 

However, I would never compare Crusade first and only season to that of Babylon 5.

You are right that Babylon 5's first series looked kind of week - dare I say that some of the effects look like they come straight from Space Precinct (in terms of early make up and created alien heads) = but all the actors in B5 had something more then Crusade ever had - and that was talent, charm and charisma - all summed up in ability. They could all act - and very well too.

 

Crusade's dialogue was in my mind often clunky and badly written, and only two of the leading actors could actually act, those being Peter Woodward and Carrie Dobro.

 

Gary Cole was weak in my mind as the ships Captain, Danial Dae Kim's character just awful

 

It had too many glossy effects and not enough good actors.

 

In addition the ship looked awful - a giant upturned Y which was immune to everything and anything that hit it. The internal layout of the ship didn't really match the design of the outer hull, and then there was that awful B-Story about then re-designing the uniforms???

 

Very very dodgy in my opinion, - and this is coming from someone who enjoyed watching SeaQuest.

 

[theaveng]

The B-story about uniform is NOT JMS' fault. That was TNT's idea.

 

 

 

I think Crusade's first 15 episodes are better than Babylon 5's first 15. I rarely if ever watch B5's first year... it just stinks. I watch the Morden episodes and that's it.

 

It's a shame we didn't get to see episode 16. It was an episode about Bester & the Shadow minions. People would probably better appreciate Crusade if the show had ended with a strong Bester/Shadow story.

 

troy

[Marcroft]

I just thought it was bad from the beginning and stayed consistantly bad - and that is despite watching it a few times.

 

I wouldn't say though that Crusades first season is stronger then B5's.

B5 had many good episodes and concepts - such as

 

Soul Hunter

Born to the Purple

Mind War

And the Sky Full of Stars

DeathWalker

Survivors

Signs and Portents

Eyes

Legacies

Babylon Squared

and Chrysalis

 

All very good episodes in my mind

[psheldrake1]

 

Yes DS9 is a ripped version of Bab 5. They didn't do a very good job of it though.

Bab 5 is a lot better

[weareborg]

I watched Babylon 5 once and basically i didn't get into it.

 

After watching DS9 once i was hooked.

 

Enough said :P

[Furious]

LIARS!!! LIARS!!!! LIARS!!! LIARS!!!.

 

DS9 did not has say again DID NOT copy B5. It was the other way around.

 

JMS didn't write all 5 seasons and put that in the B5 Bible. Thats not what tv bibles are (why are we calling them bibles?). The Bible contained the premise the characters and some background stories.

 

Look at the f*cking air dates people before you accuse a great TV show. DS9 had the Defiant a year before B5. Sisko's wife dies before Sheridan. The Bajoran story line was in TNG before DS9/B5 came on. Sisko became a Emissary in the first episode.

 

JMS is nothing but a big f**cking liar. Just because his show sucked and got it's ass beaten and handed down by DS9 in ratings every time doesn't mean he can't lie. HE is the thief. HE is the one stealing.

 

Ask your self one thing. If JMS did have a big book with all the story lines of 5 years (thats about 112 episodes). Why didn't he sue Paramount? Where is JMS vs Paramount? He would have won alot of money.

 

This guy is nothing but a lying thief. Look at what the DS9 guys are doing. Ron is doing Battlestar Galactica. Ira is doing The 4400. Rene is doing Medium. These guys are doing great TV shows. Unlike him.

 

 

I am sorry if i sound angry because i am. I hate when people accuse DS9 of being a carbon copy. Thats the best Star Trek. Thats the best TV in my opinon. You can't compare it to the real carbon copy Babylon 5.

[theaveng]

DS9 had the Defiant a year before B5. Sisko's wife dies before Sheridan. The Bajoran story line was in TNG before DS9/B5 came on. Sisko became a Emissary in the first episode.

 

True. False. False. False (Sinclair was a religious icon in the first episode which aired at the same time as DS9).

 

It's a verifiable fact that Paramount had the B5 Bible in their hands almost *2 years* before DS9 premiered. I've seen photoimages of the rejection letter. They rejected B5, and then they copied the ideas over to DS9 (just a guess, but seems likely).

 

.

 

In fact, it's verifiable that the B5 storyline existed as long ago as 1988 (TNG's second season) when the show was referred to in a sci-fi novel as "my favorite show, the Babylon 5 videonovel".

 

And if you search the Usenet, you can find JMS discussing/advertising his new show Babylon 5 in 1991..... again, *two years* before DS9.

 

1988 = Babylon 5 already existed as a pre-planned videonovel

1991 = JMS was advertising his new show to the Usenet audience.

1993 = DS9 premired.

 

However you look at it, B5 came *first*.

 

.

.

.

 

Also I find the comment "I couldn't make sense of B5," to be funny. The story is complex, due to its 5-year plot, but not that complicated. If you don't get it the first time, just watch it a second time..... and all will become clear.

 

When you watch a second time, it will also become obvious that the show is pre-planned (the writers refer to events 3 or 4 years later!).

 

troy

[theaveng]

Soul Hunter / Born to the Purple / Mind War / And the Sky Full of Stars / DeathWalker / Survivors / Signs and Portents / Eyes / Legacies / Babylon Squared / and Chrysalis. All very good episodes in my mind

 

I like the "arc" stories about the Shadows, but the ones that are not Shadow-related are "boring" in my opinion. I have little patience for stories that seem to be wasting my time w/ excessive padding (which is probably why I dislike the Old Doctor Who series). When I'm watching a slow-paced/padded episode, I always feel guilty, like I should be washing my clothes or taking out the trash.

 

Anyway net result is that I consider B5's First Season to be its worst. I only like 3 maybe 4 of the episodes when I re-watch it.

 

Of course, I feel pretty much the same about DS9's first season.

troy

[Furious]

The Bajoran story line began in Ensign Ro a Tng episode.

 

It's a verifiable fact that Paramount had the B5 Bible in their hands almost *2 years* before DS9 premiered. I've seen photoimages of the rejection letter. They rejected B5, and then they copied the ideas over to DS9 (just a guess, but seems likely).

 

Do you even know what a bible is? It is a treatmeant for the show. Basic background, main character,early plots. Not a massive encyclopedia with every episode written down. That is a lie made up by Jms and his wanking fanboys. Prove that the bible had 5 years of episodes.

 

Read these

 

Babylon 5 Series Treatment

Babylon 5 Series Bible

 

In fact, it's verifiable that the B5 storyline existed as long ago as 1988 (TNG's second season) when the show was referred to in a sci-fi novel as "my favorite show, the Babylon 5 videonovel".

 

Evidence please.

 

And if you search the Usenet, you can find JMS discussing/advertising his new show Babylon 5 in 1991..... again, *two years* before DS9.

 

1988 = Babylon 5 already existed as a pre-planned videonovel

1991 = JMS was advertising his new show to the Usenet audience.

1993 = DS9 premired.

 

So what if t has existed before Ds9. Are you saying B5 was the first ever tv show with a space station? :rolleyes: This still doesn't prove anything.

 

When you watch a second time, it will also become obvious that the show is pre-planned (the writers refer to events 3 or 4 years late

 

Tng had Q testing the humans in the first episode and the last. Does this mean they planned all along? :rolleyes:

[str82u]

WOW, that's all I can say because I'm just too lazy to do the research. I liked B5 more than DS9, but I see similar programs on all the time, it's cheesy, but it's picking up the veiwers that don't watch the other AND the veiwers who don't care either way.

Personally, I think DS9 was a reality in the ST Universe before B5, but Paramount isn't neccessarily responsible for writing scripts or whole shows, that's what the writers are for.

Influenced?.. yeah, I'd buy that about both sides. All together theft?..naw.

[Marcroft]

ah everything has ripped off Red Dwarf in one form or another anyway :P