theaveng Posted September 15, 2005 Author Share Posted September 15, 2005 That is a lie made up by Jms and his wanking fanboys. Prove that the bible had 5 years of episodes. (adopts Doctor #6's voice) Fanboy? FANboy??? Well Mr. Trekkie... I never said it did! ----- (Note: I am a trek-er. A FAN not a religious zealot. I love trek, but can see it's obvious flaws... like when it copies other shows. Trek-ies are incapable of seeing flaws in their tv-god.) . I *never* said the B5 Bible included the 5-year arc. That was obviously a hidden secret, known only to the creator JMS. ----- I said the Babylon 5 Bible (plus other sales materials left with paramount) contained the following: - pilot script for the gathering - which set up the station on the edge of earth territory (B5=DS9) - a commander not a captain (B5=DS9) - who was an important religious figure to aliens (B5=DS9) - and was involved in a space battle he lost, although the war was won (B5=DS9) - a shapeshifter (B5=DS9) Nothing I said above is inaccurate. DS9 *did* use the B5 Bible and other sales materials to create its first episode. . . . . . Later when both shows were *on-the-air*: - B5 showed a war break-out between the major races. - DS9's writers watched B5 & then followed suit. - B5 was first to do computer imagery (instead of ship models). - Circa season 5, DS9 bought B5's computer images company, and then DS9 tossed the models and did computer imagery too! The most amusing was when Babylon 5 did a "Earth vs. Earth" civil war... ... and then the next year DS9 writers copied the idea. ... they even used the same actor as the rebel leader! . Oh well. Like I said, I enjoy BOTH shows, but it often felt like I was watching twins. troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I think that it's fair to say that B5 was there first and really, it would hardly be the first time in the history of TV/film that two similarly themed shows are released very close together. I personally think that Paramount probably did steal a fair bit from JMS... but at the same time, the two shows are clearly different. B5 is infinitely better for one (if TNT hadn't screwed JMS over on season 5, it would have been great... the fact that they didn't know if they were going to get a fifth season is why season 4 has essentially 2 seasons worth of material and season 5 seems to spend about half the time on the boring telepath war.) I think the similarities are there: Religious icons as main characters Religious/spiritual races Space stations next to wormhole type things Pivotal importance of space stations The build-up to a big war The big war A foe that subverts their enemy Breaking of traditional alliances and their reformations For me, JMS not doing B5 in the ST universe is a mixed bag. On the one hand, doing it in his own universe he had hyperspace instead of the ever changing warp speed, realistic space combat, a reasonable number of races and not about 5,000,000, the chance to have some mystery and so on... pretty much vs. the budget that ST would have provided. It might be nice if in 20 years, they did B5 with the budget and made it without squishing seasons 4+5 into a year... but B5 is and remains one of my favourite shows of all time. It never patronised or preached to its viewers, something that ST is chronically guilty of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted September 15, 2005 Author Share Posted September 15, 2005 they didn't know if they were going to get a fifth season is why season 4 has essentially 2 seasons worth of material Please, please, stop. I wish fans would stop spreading misinformation. *According to JMS*, this is what he did: SEASON 4 - delete episodes 410/11/12/13 (stand-alones) - include episodes 401-409, 413-422 (war episodes) - add episodes 501-504 (closure) SEASON 5 - include episodes 504-522 - add the previously deleted stand-alones (410/11/12/13) to fill in empty space Now the numbers I used are arbitary, just to demonstrate the point, but it shows it was NOT two seasons in one. All he did was move the first four episodes from season 5 to season 4, to provide an end to the Earth Civil War. In the original plan, episode 422 = Sheridan getting captured & tortured. But the cliffhanger was moved to 418. That's all. http://www.writingonyourpalm.net/jms/jmsvol27.htm This was always a five year story. All I did was move 4 episodes out of season 5 into season 4 so we could close up the Earth Civil War story... jms troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 (adopts Doctor #6's voice) Fanboy? FANboy??? Well Mr. Trekkie... I never said it did! I never said you were a fanboy. who was an important religious figure to alien The storyline was created for third season. The bible made no mention of Valen. Sinclair Bible and was involved in a space battle he lost, although the war was won A surrender during a battle means the Earth won the battle. - a shapeshifter (B5=DS9) Star trek has had shapeshifng species for years before Odo. - a commander not a captain (B5=DS9) Star Trek has had commanders in charge before. - B5 had a war break-out between the major races. - DS9 followed suit. The Cold War began on B5 first season. DS9 did it first. - B5 did computer imagery (instead of ship models). - Circa season 5, DS9 bought B5's computer images company, and then DS9 tossed the models and did computer imagery too! DS9 never tossed out the models. They kept using it tills the end. Besides everything DS9 went into storage. The most amusing was Babylon 5 did a "Earth vs. Earth" civil war... ... and then the next year DS9 copied the idea. ... they even used the same actor as the rebel leader! Homefront aired 3 months before Severed Dreams. What Ira went into the future? Besides it wasn't Earth vs. Earth for us. Just Sisko vs Leyton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 I have to say that I think that moving those episode from season 4 to 5 did make a difference though but thanks for correcting me... I think that if that's the case though, it may well have marked JMS's decline... which ended up with the diabolical Legend of the Rangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted September 16, 2005 Author Share Posted September 16, 2005 My theory is that Season 5's story was never that great. Just like Season 1 was nothing special. season 1 = before the war season 5 = after the war Neither of those is as interesting as during the war (season2/3/4). BTW, I stll rank season 5 > season 1. The story about Londo is deeply tragic. (more below) who was an important religious figure to alienThe storyline was created for third season. The bible made no mention of Valen. If you watch Babylon 5, references to Sinclair = Minbari Religious Figure are made back in 1993's *first* episode. It was *in the script* handed to Paramount. So they copied. Sisko = Bajoran Religious Figure. and was involved in a space battle he lost' date=' although the war was won[/quote']A surrender during a battle means the Earth won the battle. No. Earth *lost* the battle of the line. Minbar did not surrender until several hours *after* the battle was already lost. - a shapeshifter (B5=DS9) Star trek has had shapeshifng species for years before Odo.- a commander not a captain (B5=DS9) Star Trek has had commanders in charge before. (1) Shapeshifters were never used as *main characters* we see week-after-week. That came directly from B5's Pilot Script, which Paramount copied to DS9. (2) Again, commanders were never featured as the *lead role*. That came directly from B5's Pilot Script, which paramount copied to DS9. - B5 did computer imagery (instead of ship models). - Circa season 5, DS9 bought B5's computer images company, and then DS9 tossed the models and did computer imagery too! DS9 never tossed out the models. They kept using it tills the end. Besides everything DS9 went into storage. Which totally misses the point. DS9 BOUGHT B5'S GRAPHICS COMPANY. Paramount was *directly following* B5's footsteps - using computer graphics of ships for the season 6 & 7 battles. - B5 had a war break-out between the major races. - DS9 followed suit. The Cold War began on B5 first season. DS9 did it first. DS9's hints of coming war between Dominion/Federation did not start until season 3... a full YEAR after B5's "Babylon Squared" revealed a war would happen. The most amusing was Babylon 5 did a "Earth vs. Earth" civil war... ... and then the next year DS9 copied the idea. ... they even used the same actor as the rebel leader! Homefront aired 3 months before Severed Dreams. Yes true, but the B5 Civil War began as a "take down the president" conspiracy w/ General Hague. They were building up a force of ships to start a civil war. And that happened a full YEAR before DS9 copied the idea. And I suggest you rewatch Homefront. Federation ships blowing up Federation ships = Earth vs. Earth = civil war = copying B5. troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 If you watch Babylon 5, references to Sinclair = Minbari Religious Figure are made back in 1993's *first* episode. It was *in the script* handed to Paramount. So they copied. Sisko = Bajoran Religious Figure. The bible made hints of his "greatness" but not nothing specific about being a Religious Figure. The episode how ever i haven't seen. Downloading it now. Have you considered JMS rewrote the episode after he saw the Emissary? No. Earth *lost* the battle of the line. Minbar did not surrender until several hours *after* the battle was already lost. I may not be the greatest B5 fan but i know enough that the battle occurred on Earth. If the Minbari won then Humans would have all died. (1) Shapeshifters were never used as *main characters* we see week-after-week. That came directly from B5's Pilot Script, which Paramount copied to DS9. (2) Again, commanders were never featured as the *lead role*. That came directly from B5's Pilot Script, which paramount copied to DS9. (1) By stealing an idea from ? Curious he gave the bible *1 year* after TNG had one? :rolleyes: Star Trek has always show Shape shifters it was just going to a matter of time before they became a main character. (2) This has nothing to do with B5. Berman wanted show opposite of TNG. Which totally misses the point. DS9 BOUGHT B5'S GRAPHICS COMPANY. Paramount was *directly following* B5's footsteps - using computer graphics of ships for the season 6 & 7 battles. Watch DS9 battles and compare it to B5. The graphics of B5 suck. The battles were of model ships. They made th model battle with sfx explosion. Then kept reusing the stock footage. Compare sfx an models http://koti.mbnet.fi/~samis/hi/models/narn/images/narn-cruiser_large_mk.jpg http://www.strekschematics.utvinternet.com/shipgallery/shipgallery3/defiant.jpg The ony computer graphic ship ever used was the Akira by ILM. DS9's hints of coming war between Dominion/Federation did not start until season 3... a full YEAR after B5's "Babylon Squared" revealed a war would happen. Babylon Squared two month after "The Jem'Hadar". If want to get technical "Rules of Acquisition" was first which aired about 10 months before. Here: Rules of Acquisition Oct 7, 1993 The Jem'Hadar June 12, 1994 Babylon Squared August 10, 1994 Yes true, but the B5 Civil War began as a "take down the president" conspiracy w/ General Hague. They were building up a force of ships to start a civil war. And that happened a full YEAR before DS9 copied the idea. Name the episode. And I suggest you rewatch Homefront. Federation ships blowing up Federation ships = Earth vs. Earth = civil war = copying B5. A civil war means a full scale war where everyone is involved. Defiant vs Lakota is not a war. Besides Defiant could have destroyed Lakota but it didn't. Lakota never destroyed the Defiant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted September 16, 2005 Author Share Posted September 16, 2005 "A civil war means a full scale war where everyone is involved." Well if you're going to be that technical, B5 didn't have a civil war in season 2-3. I don't know what you'd call it. A rebellion? A coup? But it doesn't matter what it's called - The Point is that B5 created a story about a crisis back on Earth in season 2 & 3. Ditto DS9. If you watch Babylon 5, references to Sinclair = Minbari Religious Figure are made back in 1993's *first* episode. It was *in the script* handed to Paramount. So they copied. Sisko = Bajoran Religious Figure. The bible made hints of his "greatness" but not nothing specific about being a Religious Figure. The episode how ever i haven't seen. Downloading it now. Have you considered JMS rewrote the episode after he saw the Emissary? . Impossible. Emissary & the Gathering aired within one month of each other. So it would have been impossible for JMS to watch DS9's pilot, and then go back and redo B5's pilot. I guess it's your claim that DS9 set the station/characters/et cetera, and JMS copied it? Watch DS9 battles and compare it to B5. The graphics of B5 suck. The battles were of model ships. They made th model battle with sfx explosion. Then kept reusing the stock footage. Not True. You're making a statement "DS9 used models" which you have not double-checked. You're just guessing. There are two places where you can *verify* DS9 used computer graphics: - The credits for season 6-7 list "Foundation Imaging"... same company that used to do Babylon 5. - The DVD commentary where the FX Supervisor says, "Our last great model battle was the Klingon attack on DS9. In season 6 and 7 it became necessary to retire the models & use computer-generated imagery." - I've attached a complete history of the Computer Imagery company which worked on B5 first... and then DS9. . As for quality, the reason is simple: - B5's ships were all created in computer memory. They don't exist in the real-world. And drawing inside a computer, especially with 1993's primitive 16-bit technology, resulted in less detailed shapes. - In contrast, Trek's ships were created by hand & then scanned into the computer. The 3D scanning of hand-built models resulted in more detailed computer images. FOUNDATION IMAGING 1993-96 - Babylon 5 seasons 1-3 1996-97 - Star Trek Voyager season 3 1997-01 - Star Trek DS9 seasons 6-7 & voyager 4-7 2001-02 - Enterprise No. Earth *lost* the battle of the line. Minbar did not surrender until several hours *after* the battle was already lost. I may not be the greatest B5 fan but i know enough that the battle occurred on Earth. If the Minbari won then Humans would have all died. No. Once again, you make a statement & have no clue what actually happened. The Battle of the Line took place in outer space. Earth lost. But the war was not yet over. The Minbari were still on the edge of the solar system, and the war was still continuing. "A commander who lost the battle, but not the war." No wonder you don't see the B5/DS9 connections. It's apparent you are familiar with B5, but do not know the story (and you thought DS9 still used models!!!) If you did know the B5 story, as well as you know the DS9 story, you'd see the obvious lifting of ideas from B5 by the DS9 writers. . By the way, I have to give credit to DS9 for one thing: - Their stand-alone episodes/short stories were FAR better than B5's. B5's stand-alones, like the one about a boxing match or the one about a station trade union, were terrible. DS9 still has a lot of great stand-alone stories... even more than TNG had. - But I have to agree with DS9 Executive Producer Ron Moore when he said: "Babylon 5's executed its larger story better than our own." troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 I guess it's your claim that DS9 set the station/characters/et cetera, and JMS copied it? No i believe the station part was a coincident. The rest he ripped off. Like the Defiant. - The credits for season 6-7 list "Foundation Imaging"... same company that used to do Babylon 5. Just because they had SFX means no miniatures? Lol your crazy. Star Trek had been using sfx with miniatures for years. The DVD commentary where the FX Supervisor says, "Our last great model battle was the Klingon attack on DS9. In season 6 and 7 it became necessary to retire the models & use computer-generated imagery." What about this. Dated 1999 (S7) GH: Until the end of last season, I had exclusively photographed models for the show. At that time I began to develop an infrastructure for doing photographic quality computer generated ships. We are at this time just reaching the fruition of that process and I hope to use those techniques for the final battle sequences which will most certainly appear in our final episodes. In the fifth season of DS9, miniature photography comprised approximately 85 percent of the action sequences. In the 6th season, about 70 per cent. in the 7th season, only about 10 percent. So he he retired the models eh? - B5's ships were all created in computer memory. They don't exist in the real-world. And drawing inside a computer, especially with 1993's primitive 16-bit technology, resulted in less detailed shapes. So the graphics in S2-5 and the movies were using 1993 ship memory? Lol either JMS is a cheap ass or your making it up. 1996-97 - Star Trek Voyager season 3 A HA! you said DS9 bought it from B5. Another lie but this time you shot yoreself in the foot. The Battle of the Line took place in outer space Usually when someone says a space battle occurred on Earth the other would think it happened on the space near Earth. But I have to agree with DS9 Executive Producer Ron Moore when he said: "Babylon 5's executed its larger story better than our own." Funny that google can't find eh? ;) "A civil war means a full scale war where everyone is involved." Well if you're going to be that technical, B5 didn't have a civil war in season 2-3. I don't know what you'd call it. A rebellion? A coup? But it doesn't matter what it's called - The Point is that B5 created a story about a crisis back on Earth in season 2 & 3. Ditto DS9. For the love of god i asked for the NAME of the first episode of the arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 You guys sure like the quoting game, LOL! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted September 18, 2005 Author Share Posted September 18, 2005 No i believe the station part was a coincident. The rest JMS ripped off. Like the Defiant.- The credits for season 6-7 list "Foundation Imaging"... same company that used to do Babylon 5. Just because they had SFX means no miniatures? Lol your crazy. Star Trek had been using sfx with miniatures for years. Yes you're correct. I shouldn't have said "they threw away models". I exaggerated. My bad. BUT that doesn't change my point - DS9 [aka Star Trek Studios] copied B5's computer graphics - even buying-out the B5 company known as Foundation Imaging. B5 set a standard for space-based effects (winning several awards) that Trek wanted to copy. So Trek Studios bought the company. AKA COPIED. And as for the B5 graphics, once the "style" was established in 1993 with 16-bit graphics, wouldn't it have looked silly to suddenly jump to model-style realism? Even in 1998, when they had advanced Silicon Graphics machines, Babylon 5 had to keep backwards-continuity with the older 1993 style. (Just as Trek preserved continuity to the "model-look"... even though it's all CGI now.) Babylon 5 had HALF the budget of Star Trek ($800,000 vs. $1.6 million), so it's actually amazing they did as well as they did. B5 had half as much money, but managed to create effects good enough that Star Trek Studios purchased the company! . And please don't call me crazy. That's just rude. JMS advertised Babylon 5 as a "novel for TV" on the internet, back in 1992. He said he had a pre-plotted storyline for five years *back in 1992* JMS did not copy anything. There was no need. . I'm not continuing this discussion. Your language has become abusive & devolved into personal attacks ("you lie" and "JMS is a cheap ass"). I don't waste my time with people who lack basic manners. Act like a civilized adult, not a tactless child. If you want to continue this discussion, dump the childish attacks, and I'll talk to you. But I'm not going to waste my time with a man throwing a temper tantrum. troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S0V13T Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 You guys sure like the quoting game' date=' LOL! :D[/quote'] Hey! I wanna play too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 B5 set a standard for space-based effects (winning several awards) that Trek wanted to copy. So Trek Studios bought the company. AKA COPIED. B5 set no standard. Their SFX were made by 8 linked amiga 2000. That would add up to about 60 Mhz. The one who set the standards were the movies like Toy Story. Who could afford PCs that had 500+ Mhz. With DS9 budget they could get better graphics then B5. Thank god they were smart to wait for computers to get faster. By the way coping isn't buying they are two different things. And as for the B5 graphics, once the "style" was established in 1993 with 16-bit graphics, wouldn't it have looked silly to suddenly jump to model-style realism? Even in 1998, when they had advanced Silicon Graphics machines, Babylon 5 had to keep backwards-continuity with the older 1993 style That sounds so stupid. Lol. JMS keeps bragging on how he had a small budget and couldn't afford good graphics. He said he had a pre-plotted storyline for five years *back in 1992* JMS did not copy anything. There was no need. Yeah with a little help from DS9 here and there. I'm not continuing this discussion. Your language has become abusive & devolved into personal attacks ("you lie" and "JMS is a cheap ass"). I don't waste my time with people who lack basic manners. Act like a civilized adult, not a tactless child. If you want to continue this discussion, dump the childish attacks, and I'll talk to you. But I'm not going to waste my time with a man throwing a temper tantrum. JMS Cheap ass: You said it here - B5's ships were all created in computer memory. They don't exist in the real-world. And drawing inside a computer, especially with 1993's primitive 16-bit technology, resulted in less detailed shapes and the man keeps on BRAGGING about his smll budget compared to DS9. Your making it up: I believe i said this not "you lie". And i am right you did lie. Here they are But I have to agree with DS9 Executive Producer Ron Moore when he said: "Babylon 5's executed its larger story better than our own." The Point is that B5 created a story about a crisis back on Earth in season 2 & 3. Ditto DS9. 91 - JMS leaves Babylon 5 Bible with Paramount - B5 had a war break-out between the major races. - DS9 followed suit. - Circa season 5, DS9 bought B5's computer images company, and then DS9 tossed the models and did computer imagery too! The most amusing was Babylon 5 did a "Earth vs. Earth" civil war... ... and then the next year DS9 copied the idea. ... they even used the same actor as the rebel leader! It's a shame that Sci-Fi Channel didn't have enough money. They *wanted* to buy Crusade and continue the story, but they were already funding Sliders, Farscape, First Wave, and Outer Limits. They literally had no money to fund B5 Crusade. And no, I'm not trying to start a fight. As I've said *several times*, I think DS9 is the second best science fiction ever to grace the tv screen. I would not attack something I love that much. The worst one is the last. DS9 IS THE BEST. :p If you want to continue this discussion, dump the childish attacks, and I'll talk to you. But I'm not going to waste my time with a man throwing a temper tantrum. troy Sure Sure . You gave up. You couldn't prove that DS9 stole anything. :rolleyes: I would have thought of you more as a man if you admitted that you were wrong. You took the cowards way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 Let's not get on each others nerves and provoke each other... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted September 18, 2005 Author Share Posted September 18, 2005 By the way copying isn't buying; they are two different things. Paramount/Trek Studios *bought* the company that did B5 Effects. Just look at their resume. B5/Trek shared the same artists and same computers: FOUNDATION IMAGING 1993-96 - Babylon 5 seasons 1-3 1996-97 - Star Trek Voyager season 3 1997-01 - Star Trek DS9 seasons 6-7 & voyager 4-7 2001-02 - Enterprise troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 By the way copying isn't buying; they are two different things. Paramount/Trek Studios *bought* the company that did B5 Effects. Just look at their resume. B5/Trek shared the same artists and same computers: FOUNDATION IMAGING 1993-96 - Babylon 5 seasons 1-3 1996-97 - Star Trek Voyager season 3 1997-01 - Star Trek DS9 seasons 6-7 & voyager 4-7 2001-02 - Enterprise troy I know that dude. But how is buying coping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted September 18, 2005 Author Share Posted September 18, 2005 Star Trek was using the same artists, same computers, same software, and same techniques (the Species 3.1415... is a near-identical copy of a season 1 B5 alien). No surprise since it was the *same company* re-using old aliens. It's not just buying. It's copying. troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 The only thing i have seen w/ a Babylon in the tital was a manga...and it wasnt about a station..r SCI fi. is Babylon 5 avaible for torrent on this site? cuse if it looks like DS9 then i wanna see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverlordQ Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 I never watched B5, was too boring imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 Star Trek was using the same artists, same computers, same software, and same techniques (the Species 3.1415... is a near-identical copy of a season 1 B5 alien). No surprise since it was the *same company* re-using old aliens. It's not just buying. It's copying. troy What species? There is no "Species 3.1415". Do you mean Species 8472? Thats Voyager. btw i watched the pilot. Your wrong about his religious status. All we got was the name Valen and "a hole in your mind". Since the bible has no reference to Valen and the Emissary was aired 3 months earlier. We can conclude JMS stole the Valen Idea from DS9. is Babylon 5 avaible for torrent on this site? cuse if it looks like DS9 then i wanna see it. Yea it is. I am stil downloading season 1. Beware though because the dialogue is horible and the graphic is laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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