Is DS9 a copy of Babylon 5?

[theaveng]

But the story is much, much stronger in B5. That's why I rank it #1 - one step higher than DS9.

 

 

 

BTW you should watch "In the Beginning" before you watch season 1, because ITB shows the Minbari-Earth war that season 1 talks about.

 

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TRIVIA:

 

Back in the 1970s, Harlan Ellison and Ben Bova sued Paramount for a similar situation. They'd shopped a series to Paramount based on their short story "BRILLO", about a robot policeman. Paramount turned it down, and without skipping hardly a beat, put into production...FUTURE COP.

 

Bova & Ellison won their suit against Paramount.

 

troy

[Furious]

BTW you should watch "In the Beginning" before you watch season 1, because ITB shows the Minbari-Earth war that season 1 talks about.

 

Funny thing is Sci Fi UK showed In the Beginning. I watched it before the gathering. Again bad grahpics but what i don't get is Delen. She meet Kosh in ITB but forgets about him in the gathering.

[theaveng]

Those "bad graphics" were cutting-edge in 1993. No other tv show was doing computer graphics. They won the Emmy Awatd for best special effects! (ASIDE - JMS says he wants to go back & re-render everything for HDTV (1920x1080)... he just needs WarnerBrothers to give him the money to do so.)

 

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To answer your question - Same reason why in ST6 Leia says, "My mother died when I was very young... but I remember her singing" even though the Prequel ST3 shows Leia's mother died during childbirth & she was screaming not singing.

 

(shrug) When you do prequels, you sometimes have minor inconsistencies. (BTW how do we know Delenn forgot about Kosh?)

 

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Here's a website you might want to refer to, which provides answers direct from JMS: http://www.midwinter.com

 

troy

[Furious]

Those "bad graphics" were cutting-edge in 1993. No other tv show was doing computer graphics. They won the Emmy Awatd for best special effects! (ASIDE - JMS says he wants to go back & re-render everything for HDTV (1920x1080)... he just needs WarnerBrothers to give him the money to do so.)

 

In the Beginning was made 1998.

 

To answer your question - Same reason why in ST6 Leia says, "My mother died when I was very young... but I remember her singing" even though the Prequel ST3 shows Leia's mother died during childbirth & she was screaming not singing.

 

Lea never knew she ws adopted until the end. The women she was refering to was Alderaan's Minister of Education. Wife of Bail Organa. This man.

 

Checkhim out in the end Episode 3 with his wife holding baby Lea.

 

(shrug) When you do prequels, you sometimes have minor inconsistencies. (BTW how do we know Delenn forgot about Kosh?)

 

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Here's a website you might want to refer to, which provides answers direct from JMS: http://www.midwinter.com

 

She sid in the pilot she never meet a Vorlon

 

About Lurker. I have ben using his side for my arguments.

[theaveng]

Those "bad graphics" were cutting-edge in 1993. No other tv show was doing computer graphics. They won the Emmy Awatd for best special effects!

In the Beginning was made 1998.

Here, re-read your sentence: "Funny thing is Sci Fi UK showed In the Beginning. I watched it before the gathering. Again bad grahpics..." ----- The antecent to the phrase "bad graphics" refers to the previous noun "gathering", and so naturally I thought you were saying "gathering = bad graphics".

 

I agree the Gathering looks aged (you can see pixelation), but it still won an Emmy Award for best effects (beating trek's models). It was the best effects of 1993.

 

As for 1998's movie - Excluding the stock footage from season 1's old 1994 graphics, I disagree Beginning had bad effects. All of the NEW effects are of the highest-quality using Silicon Graphics machines... same as Star Wars or Farscape used. Obviously it's a different style from trek (B5 has *living ships*... something trek doesn't have), but not worse. Not trash like you claim.

 

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Why did you post such a H-U-G-E picture of Bail Organa? Are you in love with him? ;-)

 

Also, rewatch Star Wars 6. Leia *did* know she was adopted. Just as Luke knew his "parents" were actually an aunt & uncle. Luke asks about her mother & Leia says she was adopted.... but that she has vague recollections of her REAL mother singing. So, there's an inconsistency. Trust me. I just watched the whole series this past weekend.

 

(shrug) Like I said, prequels sometimes lead to inconsistencies.

 

troy

[Furious]

1988 - JMS publishes in one his novels, that he will be created a "Babylon 5 videonovel"

1989

1990

1991 - JMS leaves Babylon 5 Bible & The Gathering script with Paramount

92 - The Gathering is put on film

93 - First episodes of DS9 on tv. So paramount had nearly two years to copy ideas from the Babylon 5 Bible.

> Both have space stations on the edge of Earth/Starfleet space.

> Both are headed by a Commander, not a Captain.

> Both Commanders were involved in a space battle they lost, although the war was won.

> Both Commanders are considered religiously important by another race.

> Both series have shape shifters (modified/dropped from B5 after DS9 went into production).

 

- B5 started with a continuing storyline about a Shadow War (August 1994)

- DS9 copied that idea with the Romulans starting the Dominion War (May 1995)

 

- B5 started a story about a General rebelling against the Earth president (November 1994)

- DS9 copied the story (January 1994)

- And even used the same actor from Babylon 5! (General Hague) who walked-out on his B5 Contract.... bribed by Paramount

 

- B5 was the first TV show to use CGI space effects (February 1993)

- DS9/VOY bought the B5 company in 1996

 

And most importantly, Paramount has been known to steal shows:

- 1978 - Harlan Ellison & Ben Bova shopped a series to Paramount based on their short story "Brillo", about a robot policeman.

- 1979 - Paramount turned it down, and without skipping hardly a beat, put into production...FUTURE COP.

- Ellison & Bova won sued & won against Paramount for IP theft.

 

 

 

I think I've proved my argument (for people who are open-minded enough to listen). I enjoy BOTH shows (DS9 is my second favorite), but it's obvious that Paramount was using the Bible & The Gathering script as the basis for their new Trek spinoff.

 

troy

 

Learn to use the tags because i can't understand what you wrote.

[Furious]

- B5 started with a continuing storyline about a Shadow War (August 1994)

- DS9 copied that idea with the Romulans starting the Dominion War (May 1995)

 

You don't think these are acts of war?

 

Destroying a colony and massacring it's civilanas

Destroying USS Maryland

Destroying USS Proxima

Destroying USS Sarajevo

Destroying USS Odyssey

Kidnapping two federation citzens including a Starfleet Commander.

Destroying Trade Vessels

What maes you think the War Began when other races attack The Dominion. The Dominion are smart enough to separate the Romulans from the feds. Face it the cold war began on the The Jem'Hadar.

 

 

- B5 started a story about a General rebelling against the Earth president (November 1994)

- DS9 copied the story (January 1995)

- And even used the same actor from Babylon 5! (General Hague) who walked-out on his B5 Contract.... bribed by Paramount

 

No one rebelled agianst The Federation President. Watch the episode agian

 

- B5 was the first TV show to use Computer Graphics space effects (February 1993)

- DS9/VOY bought the B5 company in 1996, so they too could do advanced computer effects (and gradually replace costly & slow-to-use model effects)

 

This is your idea of stealing? Berman and Ira have no controll on matters like this.

 

And most importantly, Paramount has been known to steal shows:

- 1976 - Harlan Ellison & Ben Bova shopped a series to Paramount based on their short story "Brillo", about a robot policeman.

- 1976 - Paramount turned it down, and without skipping hardly a beat, put into production...FUTURE COP.

- Ellison & Bova won sued & won against Paramount for IP theft.

 

20th Century Fox sued Universal Studios because BSG was a copy of Star Wars. Anyone who has seen them would know BSG is nothing like star wars. Just because people sue don't mean they are right. Besides Paramount doesn't controll the storylines. Star Trek is blessed not to have networ interference.

 

but it's obvious that Paramount was using the Bible & The Gathering script as the basis for their new Trek spinoff.

 

WHERE??? The Bible had nothing on the Sheridan,war,Valen and the coup. The Gathering had nothing on Sheridan,war,Valen and the coup. All we get is a name "Valen" and a "hole in your mind". Prove your bible and gathering.

[TetsuoShima]

MODERATOR REQUEST: Since this discussion almost seems to have become a private thing between the two of you, I'll ask nicely: there are two threads concerning the same issue, you can choose which one is getting locked by posting only in the thread that you'd like to keep open. If you keep on posting in both threads, I'll be forced to pick one myself.

 

I'm sure both ends of the story can be discussed just as easily in one thread. ;)

[theaveng]

lock "did b5 copy ds9" (the other thread). thank you.

 

troy

[theaveng]

1988 - JMS publishes in one his novels, othersyde, that he will be creating a "Babylon 5 videonovel"

1989

1990

1991 - JMS leaves Babylon 5 Bible & The Gathering script with Paramount

92 - The Gathering is put on film

93 - First episodes of DS9 on tv. So paramount had nearly two years to copy ideas from the Babylon 5 Bible and the Gathering script.

> Both have space stations on the edge of Earth/Starfleet space.

> Both are headed by a Commander, not a Captain.

> Both Commanders were involved in a space battle they lost, although the war was won.

> Both Commanders are considered religiously important by another race.

> Both series have shape shifters (modified/dropped from B5 after DS9 went into production).

 

 

- B5 started with a continuing storyline about a Shadow War (1994)

- DS9 copied that idea with the Romulans starting the Dominion War (1995)

 

- B5 started a story about a General rebelling against the Earth president (1995)

- DS9 copied the story (1996)

- And even used the same actor from Babylon 5! (General Hague) who walked-out on his B5 Contract.... bribed by Paramount

 

- B5 was the first TV show to use Computer Graphics space effects (1993)

- DS9/VOY bought the B5 company (1996), so they could phase-out the costly/hard-to-use model effects & do the same advanced computer effects as B5

 

And most importantly, Paramount has been known to steal shows:

- 1975 - Harlan Ellison & Ben Bova shopped a series to Paramount based on their short story "Brillo", about a robot policeman.

- 1976 - Paramount turned it down, and without skipping hardly a beat, put into production...FUTURE COP.

- Ellison & Bova sued & won against Paramount for IP theft.

 

 

 

I think I've proved my argument (for people who are open-minded enough to listen). I enjoy BOTH shows (DS9 is my second favorite), but it's obvious that Paramount was using the Bible & The Gathering script as the basis for their new Trek spinoff..... and lifting ideas from B5..... just as they did when they stole Futurecop from Ellison/Bova.

 

If it looks like a duck (theft)

And acts like a duck (stealing previous shows' ideas).

It's a duck (thief).

 

troy

[Bapman]

1) The stories of BOTH are based on space station

BABYLON 5... on neutral territory... DS-9 on the edge of BETA Quadrant... in BAJORAN space.

 

2) The main hero fought in a great war.

Sisko... wolf 359... Sherriden and Sinclair... Earth Mimbari war.

 

3) The main hero lost his wife.

Sisko's wife died in Wolf 359... Sherriden's dissappeared in space.

 

4) The main hero is a religious ICON.

Sinclair is VALEN... Sisko is the Emissary...

 

5) 2 major races are in conflict with each other

Cardassians and Bajorans... Centauris and Narns.

 

6) 1 of these races had dominated the other in the past.

Cardiassans occupied Bajor... Centauris ruled Narns.

 

7) 1 of these races join forces with the enemy.

Cardassians join the Dominion... Centauris join the Shadows.

 

8) The Station is a strategic point...

DS-9... near the wormhole... B-5 near a hypergate.

 

9) An uptight FEMALE first officer with an attitude.

Kira Neris... Ivanova.

 

10) An unknown and mysterious but powerful ENEMY that starts a war.

The Dominion... and The Shadows.

 

11) A poweful ship made with Technologies 2 advanced groups with gets mass produced later.

The DEFIANT... and The WHITESTAR.

 

12) Intermediaries act on behalf of the mysterious race.

the VORTA for Dominion... and That Human guy for the Shadows.

 

13) A really powerful ancient race that try to help them

The Prophets and the Vorlons.

Both take different according who'se seeing them. Both never interfere till the very end. The main heroes are linked with them.

 

14) Epic space battles with fleets of ships. This is something ST has never done before and B-5 hinted on doing from the very beginning.

 

About the JEM 'HADAR's 1st appearance... its like the Season finale of B-5... where the pirates attack... there's a small skirmish over the station... followed by 1st appearance of a SHADOW ship. Basically 1st Jem'Hadar appearance is 1 year after 1st Shadow appearance.

The founders are shown 1 year AFTER everyone is told about the Shadows and the 1st ones.

 

The DS-9 fanboys can DENY as much as they want BUT

JMS never stole an idea... Paramount did.

JMS went to Paramount to pitch his idea BEFORE the words DS-9 even existed.

B-5 aired before DS-9.

People are going on and on about wht was in the B-5 bible and wht not.

Look... think... whn ur pitching an idea... aren't u gonna TELL them wht the story is about !?... So they'll automatically know the overall series outline.

Plus... aren't u gonna explain the cool stuff about the series... like the Ancient enemies... hybrid but powerful ships like Whitestar.

It's not specualtion... its commonsense... backed by facts.

[Bob43434]

No I don't think DS9 copied Babylon 5. Yes elements were probably inspired by B5, but lets look at the facts. First I enjoyed B5, more then Star Trek, so this shos I'm not biased. Now the facts. Babylon 5 was planned for 5 years from the start. Ds9 was planned on a yearly basis (like most shows). How a season went was determined by several factors: The previous season, the ratings, what the produces wanted and what they could do. An example being Wolf and the war with the Kl;ingons. It was stated at the time that they were bringing wolf back to boost ratings, and that the federation/klingon war wasfor the same reasons.

 

B5 had their wars planned from the begiging. As it was a 5 year arc, you can see how it was planned. The shadows were intorduced early in season 1. But you didn't leaarn anything about them til season 2. The civil war was built up from season 1, and wasn't resolved til season 5. THe shadow war was built up as the central pice of the show. It started in season 1 and was still being resolved in season 5.

 

Ds9, was like a typical star trek show. It wasn't till later season that they started to introduce someking of arc. This was obviously influced by B5 succes.

 

[Bapman]

I guess I can live with that.

Inspired by stories of B-5 and modified them to fit the ST universe.

Still... I'd have much preferred if they did B-5's story in St's universe.

Would've been so much more cooler.

[Arktis]

Bapman, the parallels you listed are exactly the things I've had sitting in the back of my head for years. Good job pointing them all out.

 

I think paramount should at least come out and admit that they were heavily influenced by B5. This obviously isn't just a case of independant invention; there are far too many similarities. Does this mean I am bashing DS9? No, I really, really like that show too. I just don't possess the rabid fanboyism that would cause one to be outraged by the thought that the *beloved* cre-a-Tors of my preciousssssss were theives.

[Bapman]

Spoken like a true rational fan.

My point was exactly... I'm a huge DS-9 fan but that doesn't mean I'll turn a blind eye and go no 'ST's are all original'

I am sad... I'll admit that. The creators of DS-9 felt like a bunch of douchebags to me but Im bashing DS-9 or getting rabid over that B-5 is original.

Just really sad that how unfair and immoral and unethical it is to steal another's idea and pass it as ur own.

n Btw... people were saying WHITESTAR n DEFIANT made debut in same season same episode so how can it be a rip off !?

I just realised... SISKO designed DEFIANT... it was powerful... it was his baby.

That wasn't Whitestar. ;)

 

It was the AGAMEMMNON... the ship they showed in the beginning on B-5 Season 2... the ship Sherriden loves and served in for 5 years and the most advanced Earth fleet ship. :)

 

It's really to easy compare Defiant to the Whitestar 'cause it comes to mind but if u think a little u'll notice it fits with the AGAMEMMNON and fits with how DS-9 did their stuff 1 season after B-5 has alrdy shown theirs.

 

Section 31 is like the PSI-CORPS.