xtremeskiing Posted September 12, 2005 Share Posted September 12, 2005 a friend of mine who I force to watch trek pointed out to me that they got these awesome ships...just everyone sucks at their job. Computer this, computer that, when the computer dont work, no one knows what to do. Note that kirk, sisko and their respective crews were the true elite of the federation. Kirk didn't even need LCD displays to be feared, and sisko could mess up a whole fleet with some busted @$$ cardi space station Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 12, 2005 Share Posted September 12, 2005 a friend of mine who I force to watch trek pointed out to me that they got these awesome ships...just everyone sucks at their job. Computer this, computer that, when the computer dont work, no one knows what to do. Note that kirk, sisko and their respective crews were the true elite of the federation. Kirk didn't even need LCD displays to be feared, and sisko could mess up a whole fleet with some busted @$$ cardi space station all the star trek series are good, except for mabe Enterprise. Picard was the best, even according to all past polls on this. all you had to do was look at picard and you would s%#* your pants due to his deaeth look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDad Posted September 13, 2005 Share Posted September 13, 2005 I agree, the Federation does not have a strong military. But that is because that is in conflict with their philosophy! They prefer talking it out. Their tactics go a bit like this: - small fleet really spread out thin - invasion force destroys one or two ships in one sector - a lot of ships from other sectors come to the rescue but before they get there, the Federation need to 'give' some serious territory away to the invasion force - two fleets meet, the Federation tries to cripple as much from the invaders as possible and then goes to the conference table to make some sort of treaty...This worked well with the Borg, didn't it? The flaw is that it assumes that any potential foe will undersand the concepts of negotiation and compromise, let alone be amenable to reason Remember that the Federation is extremely anti-militaristic. If you compare that to the US for example, you get that the US is more like the Cardassians than like the Federation (imho). It's a perception issue. Like the U.S., no one (Romulans, Klingons, Ferengi, etc.)objects to a strong military as long as there is a strong threat (Borg, Dominion) counterbalancing the aforementioned force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubix Posted September 13, 2005 Share Posted September 13, 2005 Lots of lonely outpost with liitle defense capabilities and not many warships. Besides, planetary defenses are weak, even on Earth, for what I can see in movies and series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 I agree, the Federation does not have a strong military. But that is because that is in conflict with their philosophy! They prefer talking it out. Their tactics go a bit like this: - small fleet really spread out thin - invasion force destroys one or two ships in one sector - a lot of ships from other sectors come to the rescue but before they get there, the Federation need to 'give' some serious territory away to the invasion force - two fleets meet, the Federation tries to cripple as much from the invaders as possible and then goes to the conference table to make some sort of treaty...This worked well with the Borg, didn't it? The flaw is that it assumes that any potential foe will undersand the concepts of negotiation and compromise, let alone be amenable to reason Remember that the Federation is extremely anti-militaristic. If you compare that to the US for example, you get that the US is more like the Cardassians than like the Federation (imho). It's a perception issue. Like the U.S., no one (Romulans, Klingons, Ferengi, etc.)objects to a strong military as long as there is a strong threat (Borg, Dominion) counterbalancing the aforementioned force. The United States is more like the romulan than the federation or carddasian. The united states is arrogant, yet strong, it uses threats, if nessicary will make a demonstration and dose illegl battels behind the scenes. And yea, i am an American i will admit this. This is true but the federation doesn't need to fight all out when they have the blood thristy Klingons under their belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 I personally despair for federation citizens - I mean, the whole Cardassian war pretty much highlights that the Feds have MILLIONS of people on worlds that are totally undefended. I think that at least some of the problem lies in the fact that the federation attitude to colonisation is basically putting 40 people on a new planet and then leaving them on the border next to a bunch of belligerent aliens. It seems like outside of homeworlds, most of the planets in the Federation aren't even close to industrialised (or the 24th century equivalent). Not just that but the whole unarmed science stations. While it's admirable that Star Fleet is an organisation dedicated to peaceful exploration and not military missions, it's not really a very practical attitude to have when you've got the likes of the Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans etc. on your borders and uber races like the Dominion and Borg in the galaxy. Given the relatively slow speed of warp drive (at one point in DS9 they say it takes weeks just for a subspace message to get from DS9 to some part of the federation) it seems that the federation is indeed spread far too thin to withstand anything more than a few border skirmishes. Heaven forfend that they ever have to face an enemy that doesn't just send one ship or put all their ships in the same area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 But the federation has the klingons too, so they just boosted their defence by getting them on their team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neural Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 The Federation has survived this long - but there hardly inpenatrable Was funny in that episode of TNG where a Ferengi Marauder was able to cripple the Enterprise Yea I remember that it was like the 2nd ep of season 1, also that "Marauder" seemed a lot bigger that it has been made out since. Reminds me of voyager, sometimes it was weak (kazon) other times they could fight of cubes... even though a cube destroyed 20 ships at wolf 359... way to be consistant eh :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 It was episode 2x21 "Peak Performance" where they get disabled by the Marauder... although, admittedly it was because they were in a training exercise and not expecting a real fight. Hence didn't have shields or weapons - although if you watch TNG, tactical WAITS for Picard to say "raise shields" which seems like a pretty stupid thing to do when underfire. I think there's a difference between having an ally and having the forces yourself. Sure the Klingons have got their own forces but who is to say that they would instantly want to weigh in with the Federation? I don't recall the Klingons helping out during the Cardassian war... Not just that but as DS9 shows and a couple of TNG episode, despite having been quite a secure alliance that it can all go to pot pretty quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Yeah - that was a big problem with Star Trek - they were very inconsistant - there were so many flaws that way - but it made star trek what it is today - cool ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 It was episode 2x21 "Peak Performance" where they get disabled by the Marauder... although, admittedly it was because they were in a training exercise and not expecting a real fight. Hence didn't have shields or weapons - although if you watch TNG, tactical WAITS for Picard to say "raise shields" which seems like a pretty stupid thing to do when underfire. I think there's a difference between having an ally and having the forces yourself. Sure the Klingons have got their own forces but who is to say that they would instantly want to weigh in with the Federation? I don't recall the Klingons helping out during the Cardassian war... Not just that but as DS9 shows and a couple of TNG episode, despite having been quite a secure alliance that it can all go to pot pretty quickly. I could be mistakin but didnt the klingons lead the way in the cardassian war?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 That's in DS9. I was talking about TNG. The Cardassian war in DS9 was a shapeshifter plot anyway and the Federation (as I recall) didn't really get involved until the Cardassians sided with the Dominion and of course, the Dominion war is really a whole different kettle of fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 In DS9 Gul Dukat was tring to explain why he lead the carassian Union in to the Dominon and he said something like " after the war with the KLINGONS they cardassian empire was at the edge of an abbis and the dominion was....." I forget the rest but it is in season 6 i believe, if one could give me the name of that eps. that would be great. But Dukat was talking about the war with the KLINGONS. This lead me to believe that the KLINGONS either played a Major part in the war or was the only participent. Now i dont remember hearing any thing about a speate war between only the klingon empre and cardassian union. Now I may be wrong about this seperate war between cadassia and klingons never existing but i am farily certian That cardassia lost both wars. Bringing up a good point that the klingons took care of/ helped take care of a threat to the federation. Now that sounds like an alli I would like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 We're talking at cross-purposes. I was talking about the Federation/Cardassian war in TNG. You are talking about the Klingon/Cardassian war in DS9. Now the outcome of the Federation/Cardassian war was a bit of a stalemate, creating the DMZ and making all those colonists unhappy. The outcome of the Klingon/Cardassian war, you've already stated. I don't really see how the K/C war is relevant to the Federation defences though because it was only later that the Federation got involved... and I profess that it's been ages since I saw that particular bit of DS9... so I forget exactly how it went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 So let me get this straigh since i have not seen the cardassian and federation war, The cardassians and federation fought a war and the klingons decided not to help federation... Yet in a few short years the klingons decided to take a stab at the cardassian after federation war was over. And that K/C war is what brought the cardassian Union into the dominion...ok i will take your word for it since i have not see it. Did the TNG series show the cardassian war in any season, if so can you tell me so i can DL..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Did the TNG series show the cardassian war in any season' date=' if so can you tell me so i can DL..?[/quote'] In the 4/5/6th (not entirely sure) seasons of TNG there is mention of 'tensions' along the borderline, you don't really get to see any of the fighting though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 No it happened before TNG - in an episode in season 4 O'brien says of the war when he served on the Rutlage ageis ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Yeah, sorry - you must be right. They just don't mention it until later on, when the Cardassians become protagonists in seasons 4-6. Right - here we go. We know from "The Neutral Zone" in TNG we know that 2364 is the first year of TNG and according to the wiki entry on Cardassian, they expanded into Federation territory in 2347 which lasted about 20 years. There wasn't an actual peace treaty until "Chain of Command". So I'm simply assuming that the Klingons didn't help - it's speculation. It did just seem like a border war though. Albeit a rather long one - of course, in Way of the Warrior - it's remarked that the Klingons and Cardassians had a "skirmish" that lasted for 18 years but that was "a long time ago". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wazer Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Continuing on O'brien was a hero from setlik 3 in the Cardy war and had been in starfleet 23 years when he was on DS9. On Federation defences the Defiant was built in response to the Encounter at Wolf 359 along with several other new designs to beef up the defences but with the seeming decrease in threat the equivalent of buget cut hit many new ships were abandoned including the Defiant since it had many problems with its original design. In DS9 the 7th fleet consisted of hundreds of Federation ships and I assume there were at least 6 other fleets. The power of ships like the Galaxy was not just in their firepower which was okay but there overall power a large ship has very powerful shields which can take a beating as well as a pwerfull primary phaser bank. Ie if it penetrates shields it causes massive damage. DS9 showed that the Federation has a powerful force availble for a conventional war but struggles with a small but powerful force like a borg cube because it is generally spread thinly when in exploration / peace mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 The Federation did have that 7th fleet that we saw on DS9 - but i think if they had six other fleets or possibly more then there should have been more ships at First Contact and other such events. The end scene of DS9's episode - Call to Arms shows a massive Federation + Klingon fleet - i'd say that would be there entire fleet or most of it anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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