Tenebrae Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 What they should really do is just make gigantic replicators that can pump out ships... I mean, surely that would be at least kind of possible Also - something like self-replicating mines... why don't they just use those EVERYWHERE? I mean, as they seem capable of reproducing infinitely why not just sit one of them down and let it totally surround ALL federation space? That's a cheap and easy defence solution right there. Something I've also wondered - IS the Federation really this paradise that people seem to think? I mean, outside of Earth and such, it seems a lot like a load of not too impressive colony worlds with about 8 people on them... and you have worlds like New Sydney which is a proverbial hell hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Well massive replicators would require loads of reaources and power but i suppose they could use them. an Anti Gravaton bean would be able to disable those mines - it wouldn't take long before all the mines were taken offline - so it would really be a waste of resources. Earth is meant to be a paradise world but i'm not sure about the other places in the Federation - see Homefront and Paradise Lost from Season 4 of DS9 - bit of info on Earths "paradise" bit there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 The impression I always get from Trek is that they can pretty much generate MASSIVE quantities of energy... but if you think about it like this - replicators work both ways, energy to matter and matter to energy. So all they need to do is sit down on a planet or in an asteroid belt, whatever and just let the replicator suck up that matter, turn it to energy and then use that to create whatever. It's - I now realise - similar to the World Devestators that appear in the Dark Empire comics. That Anti-gravaton beam assumes that the mines weren't cloaked and I hardly see how it would be a waste of resources if you just put one down... additionally, you're assuming that you're using them exclusively as they did at DS9, like any defensive measure they should be used as part of an entire system - which was of course the problem at DS9. The Dominion had months to sit around and disable everything. I've seen those episodes... they don't really do that much to elaborate on what is already hinted at. Earth seems like a giant village or posh suburb and then you see colony worlds and they all seem a bit weak. As I've said before it seems they slap down 50 colonists and then forget about them for a hundred years - or until random aliens kill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Yeah - those replicators may work then. But the detail that would have to go into the specifications for replicating a Starship would be unbeleivably complex. Any thing could go wrong - there have been problems with replicators before - imagine the problem with a massive replicator trying to replicate a warp core!!!. there are technologies to detect cloaked ships - a little advancement to detect the mines wouldn't be to hard. And i'm not sure what other defences would be apart of this defence system other than the mines. I'm not sure about the paradise one - Earth looks like paradise and there are other worlds in the federation which are 'Paradise' worlds such as Risa and Ceti Alpha prime.....though these are holiday resorts.....hmm.....well still i can't see how only Earth is paradise - i'm also surprised the Federation can't provide more support to these colonies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Yes it would be a detailed specification but then, they'd already have those and I'm not sure that it would be all that much harder than simulating a realistic virtual environment ;) Additionally, I don't think they'd be sticking the matter and anti-matter into the warp core to start with. That's true, there are several different technologies for detecting cloaked objects but they all seem to have been active and not passive. Plus mines are a great deal smaller than ships, hence easier to miss. As to what kind of other defences, well I'd say if you had your big orbital weapons behind the minefield - which, because they're stationary can have greater range/power. Then you're forcing attackers to move through the minefield to try and take out those defences. Which would also make it more difficult to disable them. For me, it's just a case of - you've got the people and resources, why waste time letting a planet develop naturally? Why not just pump the effort into fully developing a world in a matter of decades instead of letting it happen over centuries. If they did that, then maybe they wouldn't have to worry about every major power into the Alpha Quadrant giving them a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Yeah but what if friendly ships come through the borders - wil they be able to configure those mines not to attack them - inocent people could get hurt with those mines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steveo Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 In war it is often unavoidable that innocent people die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Yeah but i don't think they'd create a minefield that could potentially harm inocents Also - this isn't war - this is defence of the Federation - war or peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 I tink that mabe they should just make a lot of orbital defence platforms to defend major sectors like SOL and then just keep patroling with star ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Yeah - it's not if the Federation isn't defencless - Star Ships will always be there to protect planets - it just seems there a bit slow in mobilizing when the need arises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 I think the problem is that the Federation is so big and spread out and seemingly lacking in static defences that it is just leaving itself wide open to hit and run attacks. Also the mines could presumably be programmed to work with some kind of IFF system so they don't get blown up. The problem with warp is that even at maximum warp - according to Sisko - it takes months to actually get from one end to the other. So even if they had several patrolling fleets - and there is absolutely no evidence they have more than a few ships patrolling the borders... season 5 of DS9 "for the uniform" they only have one ship patrolling an entire sector. So basically, they don't have substantial border defences or static defences. They've got a fleet that is generally spread out all over the place and contains hardly any real warships and a civilian population that's going to get owned by hardcore troops... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Yeah but mines with a system like that are too complex i'd think - replicating them would be too complicated - they'd have to make so many. How large is a sector though? Also - they do have lots of Federation starships so they should be able to get to places in need quickly - even if one starship was in a sector - it would take an hour or more to get there - even with a smaller area of space there would still be loads of space to cover - but they have starbases as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Sure it would be complicated but we've got IFF now and in DS9 they knocked out cloaking self-replicating mines in a very short period of time - one can presume it was via replication. In any event I greatly doubt that adding a device for IFF 400 years after it was originally implemented is going to increase the complexity given that they've already got ones that can reproduce THEMSELVES. Which you've utterly missed. The mines reproduce themselves. So you set one off and it could - theoretically do the work for you. Like von Neumann machines. It's never really elaborated upon how large a sector is exactly or even if it's a standard unit... but in some of the maps that have been around it looks to be at least several 100 square light years. We don't know exactly how many ships there are in Starfleet but given some of the events of DS9 and TNG we know that even important strategic events only seem to be able to - in terms of rapid response - be able to muster a 10-20 ships (Apocalypse Rising, Way of the Warrior and Redemption come to mind... although admittedly Redemption WAS only a year or so after Wolf 359) fleet and I've stressed many times before - these are NOT dedicated warships. Hence, in the event of a raid they won't be there soon enough to actually do any defending and in the event of a full scale invasion they'll probably be insufficient to do that much good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Oh i don't know.....these IFF systems may be more common then but they still have to be enhanced so that people can't fool them - enemy ships could fool the mnes into thinking it's a friendly ship....and would the mines detect cloaked ships? If a sector was that large it would take like a week or more to get from one end to the other. Then i don't see how the Federation hasn't been invaded sooner - i'd like to think of the Federation as strong but the fact is there isn't much - The Cardassians used Orbital Weapon Platforms later on but apart from that - they didn't have much - the Klingons invaded them and would have one were it not for the Dominion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Who knows what they have in respect to IFF but I'd say it was fairly logical to assume that each measure is met by a counter measure. As to whether they could detect cloaked ships... probably not at a distance but then if they go off when they hit a cloaked ship, who knows. I'd maintain that outside of the Dominion War, the Federation has never had any full-scale long term conflicts - the Cardassian war seemed to last a long time but have been limited in scope to the are now designated the DMZ and they managed to patch things up with the Klingons before things got too out of hand. I'd say that ultimately it's the balance of power in the alpha quadrant that keeps them safe more than anything. From things said in TNG and DS9, there have been a lot of instances of the Federation being attacked by lesser powers but... I think that Federation simply represents such a great expanse of territory and diversity of species, that the resources required to accomplish a full-scale invasion aren't possessed by any Alpha Quadrant power to the extent required to fully invade. Now, if the Duras had managed to take over the Klingon Empire and ally with the Romulans instead of the Federation... well, I think that likely that would have meant that the Federation would suffer devestating losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Yeah - and a Federation fleet was able to stop that Romulan Aliance with the Duras and so there are obviously times when the Federation fleet was strong enough to stop these kind of things - The Romulans obviously didn't think they were powerful enough otherwise they would have attacked that fleet instead of retreat. Though you'll find that many of these unbalances in great powers such as the Klingon Empire are stoped by just one man such as when Worf found the sword of Khaless or somthing like that - One man can make a difference is common in Star Trek. Also - i suppose if say the Romulans were to invade the Federation, as fun as it may be to watch, i don't really see the advantage in doing so - The romulans would have so much more territory to protect and would most likely just mean losses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 An update on the maount of ships: In episode 5 of the 6th season of ds9, Sisko leads a taskforce to retake ds9, the taskforce is missing over half of its ships and beside the taskforce their are still at least 4 other fleets out there. At a certain point they are intercepted by a Cardassian/Dominion taskforce that contains 1240 ships. It is mentioned, can't remember who said, they outnumber us two to one, so the taskforce contains 620 ships. Adding all other ships that are mentioned during this time, that would mean they have at least 2500 ships at their disposal, the Federation I mean... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Well i was right Tenebrae - they do have lots. I'm sure i heard somwhere in a DS9 ep that the Klingons had amassed 10,000 ships to hold off the Dominion forces untill the Federation could modify there ships to block that Breen weapon....So perhaps they have lots more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 It's always the way in this genre that one person or ship or crew can turn the tide etc. That's pretty much the basis of all sci-fi shows. Also - the Federation fleet didn't "stop" the Romulans. They merely blew their cover - highlighting that the Duras were supported by the Romulans undermined their credibility, military force had nothing to do with it... but yeah, the Romulans aren't so much about invasion. They're about subversion. When niteshdw releases seasons 6 and 7 I shall watch them to see if I can get a feel for the number of ships but I feel you're on shaky ground with your extrapolation on numbers. For starters - who is to say that half of the original task force wasn't destroyed? We know the federation took heavy losses. Not only that but the Federation fleet (actually, fleets it's the 2nd and 5th) in Sacrifice of Angels is composed of a considerable number of fighters... and given that this is probably the largest engagement in Federation history. Also, it doesn't say whether that ratio is inclusive of the Klingon forces... So, it COULD be 620 but it's hard to say whether those are all Galaxy class, whereas we know that all the Dominion ships are purpose built ass kicking machines. And the absolute quantity of ships is important but the number of ships relating to territory is probably more important. I'll wager that the Federation probably has fewer ships per capita than the other Alpha Quadrant powers. Not forgetting that the Federation ships aren't warships... just in case I haven't mentioned that before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 For starters - who is to say that half of the original task force wasn't destroyed? We know the federation took heavy losses. I'm not entirely certain if I understand what you are saying, but if I try to interpret it the way I think I'm supposed to, than the answer is: no, they weren't destroyed. They just couldn't make it in time. Sisko had to leave early since the Cardassians were ready do 'dismantle' the mines near the wormhole. Not only that but the Federation fleet (actually' date=' fleets it's the 2nd and 5th) in Sacrifice of Angels is composed of a considerable number of fighters... and given that this is probably the largest engagement in Federation history. Also, it doesn't say whether that ratio is inclusive of the Klingon forces... So, it COULD be 620 but it's hard to say whether those are all Galaxy class, whereas we know that all the Dominion ships are purpose built ass kicking machines.[/quote'] You are right, auite a few of those 620 are fighters, impossible to tell how many, from the screenshots I'd say: no more than 1/5th to 1/4th. But that's really not a scientific certainty. I am certain that those 620 is without counting the Klingons, since they (=Sisko and crew) weren't even aware at that point that the Klingon were coming to help them. I'm also certain that only a small portion of those ships are Galaxy class and that they are militarily outclassed by the Dominion. And the absolute quantity of ships is important but the number of ships relating to territory is probably more important. I'll wager that the Federation probably has fewer ships per capita than the other Alpha Quadrant powers. Not forgetting that the Federation ships aren't warships... just in case I haven't mentioned that before. I'm in complete agreement here, but that's just the way the Federation philosophy works. It's hard to radiate an air of peace, tranquility and freedom when your territory is filled with warships... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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