TetsuoShima Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Well, maybe it would be a good idea if someone were to make a list of all the information we have regarding the relative positions of the 'empires'. I'll start: - Federation needs to have a border with the Klingon Empire and with the Romulan Empire - The klingon Empire needs to have a border with the Romulan Empire - There exists a point where the Klingon, Romulan and Federation have a combined border - The Federation has a border with Cardassia - The Klingons have a border with Cardassia - Bajor is somewhere between the Federation and the Cardassian Empire - The Klingons and Romulans are not in the immediate vicinity of the Wormhole - There exists a route through space for Cloaked Romulan ships to enter Cardassian space without being detected by the Federation detection grid that protects the Romulan border. - It is unknown (to me) if the Romulans border the Cardassians - .... Anybody have more information, make a list and we can try to determine what is the most accurate map... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 well the Romulans actually must have a border with the Cardassians because in Season 6 - a war breaks out between the Romulans and Cardassians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 well the Romulans actually must have a border with the Cardassians because in Season 6 - a war breaks out between the Romulans and Cardassians Ah, that is very debatable, since it isn't just a war between the Romulans and the Cardassians, it's the Romulans joining the Klingons and the Federation in the war against the Dominion. In one episode it is actually mentioned that the Romulans have retaken some part of space of the Dominion, but it is also mentioned that the space in question used to be part of the Federation and the question arises in the ep. whether or not the Romulans will be willing to give that piece back to the Federation once the war is over. There is no further mention of that afterwards in that episode, but it can be clearly interpretted that the Romulans is fighting the Dominion over Federation (and possibly) Klingon space, so your argument (as it is now) is not evidence enough that the Romulans border the Cardassians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 AHHH - no your wrong :) - at the time the Romulans made war with the Cardassians - The Federation was not allies with them - i remember the episode well - it was where Sisko tried to get the Romilans to join the fight and partially succeeded - Sisko managed to get the Romulans in the fight by killing some Romulans Ambassador and making it look like it was the Dominion - so the Romulans attacked the Cardassian space but they didn't join the Federation - that didn't happen till the end of Season 6 :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Heh, heh, I actually just watched the episode and the follow ups only yesterday and the day before.... You've got things nearly okay, but not quite. The plot of episode (DS9 - 6x19 - In the Pale Moonlight) you're referring to goes like this: -Sisko asks help from Garak to convince the Romulans to join their cause. -They both come to the conclusion that it won't be possible without evidence against the Dominion, but since Garak can't find evidence, they decide to fabricate it. -The Romulan ambassador find out that it is fabricated evidence and he tells Sisko he will expose him and his act. -On his return from his meeting with the Dominion the ambassador's ship explodes, this was Garaks handywork. -Garak explains how the Romulans will explain the faults in the fabricated datamodule (once they recover it from the wreck) as being caused by the explosion and so they won't suspect it to be a fake. -like this it will appear that the ambassador wanted to bring home evidence of a Dominion plot against the Romulans. -after this, the Romulans declare war on the Dominion and immediately attack them. In episode 'DS9 - 6x21 - The Reckoning', it is mentioned that the Romulans heve taken over the Benzyte system from the Dominion. It is also mentioned that this used to be Federation territory. You're right that at that point there is no mention of a treaty between the Romulans and the Federation. So the answer had to lay in the final episode of season 6. And indeed it did (just watched it). In this episode it is mentioned that the Romulans have made this a two front war for the Dominion and also in this episode they are trying to convince (and succeeded) the Romulans to join them. conclusion: - the Romulans heve a border with the Cardassians - the Romulan Empire, the Federation and Cardassia have a point somewhere with a combined border (or at least nearly combined) between them. The only way this can be explained is if the Federation is completely surrounded by the Klingons and Romulans, or if the empires and the federation do not have a single area of space under their control, but multiple not complete connected areas. Hadn't seen the final ep of the 6th season before, so excuse my ignorance on the Romulan/Cardassian border issue.. :thinking: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 haha - is ok :) I doubt that any of those powers could all have borders with each other. There has to be another factor..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palalgar Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 i voted good but in some cases like the borg attacks on earth wher the defense of jupiter station consisted of 3 fighters or missiles tthey were very inadequate then you have deep space nine where there's said that there are several fleets (don't know the exact number) fighting the cardassians and dominion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 It seems like ships just shoot over Federation space willy nilly anytime they want and no one bats an eyelid. As to the border thing... well, it's just bad continuity. I'd say that it's fairly obvious that the writers have no idea where the borders are so just get everyone fighting everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 However - not knowing the borders dosn't really affect much - i think if there were set maps then that would be it - you couldn't make changes - so this way we don't go "no - that can't be right - that nebula was in Romulan space - OR - ehh - wasn't that asteroid field near that star...." or somthing like that - there's more freedom for the writters this way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifilmco Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 I have to agree with Tetsuo waay back when he talked about the essential theoretical basis of the Federation - the goal ISN'T to fight wars --- yes, they could prevent others from messing around in their territory -- but honestly I think some of the more interesting ST episodes, especially in TNG, are those that deal with broader, usually disturbing issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted October 29, 2005 Share Posted October 29, 2005 TFMF - what you call freedom, I call lazy writing. How many times do they even revisit the same star system? Hell, even seeing the same loser species more than once is a novelty. I think that a lack of continuity just makes it more stereotypically sci-fi - like treknobabble it just makes it more childish. This is why B5 and Firefly were much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 29, 2005 Share Posted October 29, 2005 Ah - but Star Trek has many been about exploration - so it's important we don't see the same people or systems over and over. They have to keep moving on - This was common in most series's of Star Trek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRboy420 Posted October 29, 2005 Share Posted October 29, 2005 The federation thinks their diplomacy skills can get them out of any conflict.....they are mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 29, 2005 Share Posted October 29, 2005 Well - it has formed alliances with the Klingons, Romulans and many other races such as betazed, ferenginar etc. So they have been very succesful in many cases Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifilmco Posted October 29, 2005 Share Posted October 29, 2005 The federation thinks their diplomacy skills can get them out of any conflict.....they are mistaken. I love how this statement is general, judgmental, and not supported by any corroboration. Here's one point of logic to throw out there: if they truly thought they would only ever need diplomacy, why include weapons on a starship in the first place?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifilmco Posted October 29, 2005 Share Posted October 29, 2005 TFMF you are quite right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 The Federation is pretty much founded on the principle that different races can live together in peaceful coexistence... it doesn't get much more diplomatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifilmco Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Diplomatic? I think, the way you put it, I'd be more inclined to say "idealistic," perhaps with a bit of "optimism" thrown in for good luck. Perhaps. What is confusing me is that your statement and your description don't match up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 yeah - but the idea is the same - without diplomacy - these races could never live together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 While it's hilarious that the Federation is so anti-force and yet has had more wars than anyone else, it's MO remains the peaceful co-existance with its neighbours and their ultimate peaceful assimilation into the Federation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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