GorunNova Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 ... and I suppose just using the closest drone as a mouthpiece at any particular time wouldn't have done the job, and emphasized the interchangability and non-indiviudal nature of the Borg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 Thats right, why couldn't the borg just used some drone on the ship to be a leazion drone to another race...where they trying to be polite by making Picard, a familiar face, in to the drone that was to lead the borg to assimilate earth? God forbid they just use the closest drone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 ya know, The Queen may have come about because of the incorperation of Humans into the collective. But i still agree with the Ant philosophy. I am sure that there where other species in the delta quad. that where much more resistant to assimilation than Humans. In dark frontier 7/9 is forced to help assimilate a new species with the queen. The aliens they try to assimilate almost destroyed the queens dimond ( or cube, i coulnd't tell what they where on ). So i don't think that humans where the only threat that resisted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDad Posted September 12, 2005 Share Posted September 12, 2005 ... and I suppose just using the closest drone as a mouthpiece at any particular time wouldn't have done the job' date=' and emphasized the interchangability and non-indiviudal nature of the Borg?[/quote'] If the Borg were a real life entity, you would be right. The Borg Queen is an entirely unneccessary plot device invented by lazy scriptwriters who underestimate the intelligence of their audience. I was entirely mystified by the appearance of the Queen and think it turns the whole idea of the Collective on its ear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 12, 2005 Author Share Posted September 12, 2005 so true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 *Enterprise Spoilers* The wiki entry for the Borg is pretty interesting. They basically chart the progressively changing nature of the Borg - from a race only interested in assimiliating technology and ships/ cities etc. to one that wants to assimilate people almost to the preclusion of all else. Personally, I think that the Enterprise episode: Regeneration was my favourite rendition of the Borg post TNG. By the end, their stolen freighter is starting to look like a Borg Cube. Of course, what I never get is why the Borg - with their invasive transporters - never just beam a nanobot payload onboard a ship and warp away. Or hell, a planet... it would of course make them too powerful. Anway, I digress - the collective issue. The best way to think of it seems to be that the Queen is a personfication of the collective. Allowing creativity and command to be more generally focused. Of course, from what we've seen of the Borg Queen - she seems to be more of a liability than a strength... I definitely think that the Borg were more frightening without her. Before the Queen they were just a faceless, relentless enemy. It wasn't personal, they just wanted you in the collective. The Queen made it much more personal - she was pretty much obsessed with Seven and Voyager - and that made the Borg far less scary... plus the fact they couldn't even stop Voyager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I got a few talkers about this in one of my older fourms but i dont think that we hit an anwser. The borg say that they are a collevtive' date=' but then why do they have a queen? doesnt that defeat the purpose of a collective mind.... :thinking:[/quote'] Because the idiot writers who created Star Trek First Contact thought the Borg were too cold/mechanical. So they decided to "humanize" them with a Queen. Dumbest Idea Ever. Once the Queen was introduced, the Borg ceased to be scary. They became "just another humanoid enemy" instead of the cold, calculating, callous organic computer they once were. . BTW, a lot of people have used Ants or Bees as a model. Here's another model: The Human Brain Every neuron in the human brain is equal. There is NO queen or leader. But when you link them together, you achieve consciousness. The Borg were linked. Each Borg served as a neuron. And together they formed a gigantic brain. . The addition of the Queen ruined that concept. Such a shame. troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 15, 2005 Author Share Posted September 15, 2005 I never though about that b 4.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 O.o... does... does this mean I agree with theaveng about something? Wow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 16, 2005 Author Share Posted September 16, 2005 i guess.....wow, some one check hells temp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 Like theavang said the borg are similar to a giant brain, but they seem to lack a true consciousness because they can't think for themselves. They never learn or create anything new(luckily), because if they did they would be far too powerful. Anyway, back to the queen... I thought she added an interesting twist to the borg, but her role was overdone in a few episodes. Every time she dies or is disconnected, the nearby borg just stand around or die along with her, which is the opposite of how a collective should handle it. If they had an episode where the queen dies and another drone takes her place within minutes I would have considered it plausible(or at least a good storyline). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 Like theavang said the borg are similar to a giant brain, but they seem to lack a true consciousness because they can't think for themselves. They never learn or create anything new(luckily), because if they did they would be far too powerful. Anyway, back to the queen... I thought she added an interesting twist to the borg, but her role was overdone in a few episodes. Every time she dies or is disconnected, the nearby borg just stand around or die along with her, which is the opposite of how a collective should handle it. If they had an episode where the queen dies and another drone takes her place within minutes I would have considered it plausible(or at least a good storyline). That would be a very powerfull feature, it would also mean that they would become near invincible. The federation would have had to fight an entire full scale war against them then. And they probably would have lost... Thus the Voyager-solution was probably chosen to keep it 'interesting'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted September 25, 2005 Share Posted September 25, 2005 I've always thought that if they wrote the Borg without a view to the Federation always trumping them - Invasive transporters + Borg nanite warhead = Borg control of the galaxy. Just beam a few of those puppies anywhere and instant borgification... as to the Borg creating new stuff... Hmm, well I think that perhaps if they just did it as a response to something, they do have the ability to adapt. Of course species 8471 showed that had a limit - without the ability to assimilate, they seemed flummoxed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 27, 2005 Author Share Posted September 27, 2005 well, are the borg capible of actualy creating new stuff, or do they just assimalte. I mean they can adapt but did they create the Transwarp drive or just Steal it, i mean assimalte it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 Assimilated, probably... I think they might have even mentioned that somewhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relentless Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 Like theavang said the borg are similar to a giant brain, but they seem to lack a true consciousness because they can't think for themselves. They never learn or create anything new(luckily), because if they did they would be far too powerful. Anyway, back to the queen... I thought she added an interesting twist to the borg, but her role was overdone in a few episodes. Every time she dies or is disconnected, the nearby borg just stand around or die along with her, which is the opposite of how a collective should handle it. If they had an episode where the queen dies and another drone takes her place within minutes I would have considered it plausible(or at least a good storyline). This seems impartial to the true capabilities of the Borg. You see the borg a collective consciusness however under the control of one dignitary in this case the borg queen. Therefore they are a collective consciesness that follows orders and directions, as well as 'directives' and 'priorities' from one mind. Their sense of 'unity' or 'cohesion' is only a slight mirror of what they could hope to be. With having the thoughts of countless lives under a certain state of thinking to me is like a form of 'brainwash'. Let's not also forget that the borg's nanoprobes assimilate normal humanoid's genetics and basicly Borg Technknowledgy is a manipulative mind control thing IMHO. However unlikely it sounds, I'm willing to say that yes the borg is a "collective" though not neccasirly acting out of a collective 'thought' all the time but also being ordered by an appearing invidule the borg queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizawana Posted September 30, 2005 Share Posted September 30, 2005 The Borg isn't/aren't a collective, for it to be many minds should have a connection, like the great link of the changelings. The Borg however, is just one mind. The Queen is the center of that mind. We have all seen how she always knows what happends to every drone and can command them to do anything instantly just like a normal person lifts his/her arm up. The Borg is just a big cluster that forms one powerful mind with a body spreading across half a quadrant. Quite powerful, quite amazing. But no collective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurion Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 I think the Borg can still be considered a collective after the Queen. The ant/bee analogy supports that. However, not the collective introduced to Picard by Q on TNG. Maybe it changed (adapted) after the Hugh incident (I, Borg). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 Surely the Hive analogy undermines a collective nature? After all, while a hive may act in a collective interest, it's rigidly hierarchical. Of course, the problem here is clearly that we're essentially not just trying to understand something but trying to reconcile the fact that each writer has put their own spin on the idea and of course, added stuff along. So we've essentially got a hodge-podge of information - some of which conflicts with each other. It does often seem though, that drones are just that. One can only assume that they act like nodes in a gigantic network though. The inconsistency of the Borg is rather vexing though. I mean, trying to take over the Federation with one cube fails... so they do the exact same thing again? Not to mention that even though the Delta quadrant was full of less technically advanced species, as the main method of borg reproduction seems to be assimilation, surely it would be logical for them to just go out there and assimilate them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 But no collective. Go rewatch "Q Who". Either the Borg (or Q I forget) calls themselves a collective. ----- Watch how the Enterprise blows away one-quarter the ship. And yet the Borg keep coming. They have built-in redundancy, so they can keep functioning even with only 10% of the ship. I preferred that version of the Borg. They were powerful, inhuman, and scary. Q: "They are relentless. They will keep coming until you've exhausted your resources. Then they will CONSUME you. You are nothing to them." The current version, "Kill the queen & they all stop" is no scarier than a group of Vulcans. Boo. (One of the reasons, among many, that I think Voyager is crap.) . The Human Brain Every neuron in the human brain is equal. There is NO queen or leader. But when you link them together, you achieve consciousness. The Borg were linked. Each Borg served as a neuron. And together they formed a gigantic brain. I'm a bit surprised to see some of you say, "Never thought of that." I thought that concept was implied by the very first Borg episode (1989): "collective consciousness" . Unfortunately, the addition of the Queen ruined that concept of "Borg = gigantic/hyper-intelligent brain". Such a shame. troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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