WHO LOVES THE ROMULAN TAL SHIAR?

[GhostShadow]

yea i noticed that the Obsidean order isnt officaly allowed to have any military euipment or forces. And Section 31, well no one knows who what they have but i know that they dont have ships full of combat veterans like the Tal Shiar.

 

 

[TFMF]

^ allthough - the fact that the Obsidian Order isn't allowed to build ships certainly didn't stop them. And to be honest - i don't see why they shouldn't be allowd to - the Tal Shiar will have more power to protect the Romulan people becuase they have ships and probebly an army - the Obsidian Order can't do much to help anyone without a fleet.

 

 

[GhostShadow]

yea, but the obsidean order building a fleet would be like star fleet inteligence building a fleet. I thought that obsiedan order was just an intel source. Unlike Tal Shiar an actual part of military.

[Vektram]

I think that this is now down to section 31 and Tal Shiar. I think that it is obvious that since the Obsiden Order was infultrated and defeated that they where the lesser power of 3 evils.

 

This is a cool pic i took of them attking the founders planet. I dont think that even the all might section 31 could have pulled this off' date=' even though they whernt sucsessful it was still original.[/quote']

 

I think you're just a tiny bit biased. :p

 

So, because the Obsidian Order were defeated, they are the lesser of 3 evils, but the Tal'Shiar were defeated as well! So logically, Section 31 wins :cyclops:

 

Who says 31 doesn't have ships ;)

 

well i doubt there could be a ship manned by spys

 

Isn't that what Tal'Shiar ships are?

 

 

I thought that the Obsidian Order and Tal'Shiar joined forces to attack the Dominion? Although I haven't seen all of the war yet. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

So... we have this.

a) The Obsidian Order was badly defeated by the founders.

b) The Tal'Shiar were defeated by the founders, not as badly as the Obsidian Order. However, they did ally themselves with the Obsidian Order, a "lesser" force in many people's opinions.

c) Section 31 itself was never defeated by the founders. Or at least no-one found out if they were.

 

So, correct me if i'm wrong again, but didn't Starfleet win the war against the Dominion? The Romulans and Cardassians lost. Above it shows that the Obsidian Order were, judging from what I've read, the least powerful of all the agencies. The comes the Tal'Shiar then Section 31. .'. Section 31 reigns supreme over all other intelligence agencies.

:rolleyes:

 

Of course in the end it comes down to personal preference, and who you think is cool. And although I seem to have found that they were the worst I voted for the Obsidian Order however, so awesome... so Cardassian.

:p

[/rant]

[TFMF]

I think that this is now down to section 31 and Tal Shiar. I think that it is obvious that since the Obsiden Order was infultrated and defeated that they where the lesser power of 3 evils.

 

This is a cool pic i took of them attking the founders planet. I dont think that even the all might section 31 could have pulled this off' date=' even though they whernt sucsessful it was still original.[/quote']

 

I think you're just a tiny bit biased. :p

 

So, because the Obsidian Order were defeated, they are the lesser of 3 evils, but the Tal'Shiar were defeated as well! So logically, Section 31 wins :cyclops:

 

Who says 31 doesn't have ships ;)

 

well i doubt there could be a ship manned by spys

 

Isn't that what Tal'Shiar ships are?

 

 

I thought that the Obsidian Order and Tal'Shiar joined forces to attack the Dominion? Although I haven't seen all of the war yet. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

So... we have this.

a) The Obsidian Order was badly defeated by the founders.

b) The Tal'Shiar were defeated by the founders, not as badly as the Obsidian Order. However, they did ally themselves with the Obsidian Order, a "lesser" force in many people's opinions.

c) Section 31 itself was never defeated by the founders. Or at least no-one found out if they were.

 

So, correct me if i'm wrong again, but didn't Starfleet win the war against the Dominion? The Romulans and Cardassians lost. Above it shows that the Obsidian Order were, judging from what I've read, the least powerful of all the agencies. The comes the Tal'Shiar then Section 31. .'. Section 31 reigns supreme over all other intelligence agencies.

:rolleyes:

 

Of course in the end it comes down to personal preference, and who you think is cool. And although I seem to have found that they were the worst I voted for the Obsidian Order however, so awesome... so Cardassian.

:p

[/rant]

 

Think about it - the Romulans are a very secretive race - in away - there all spys - the Tal Shiar is just an advanced section of spys - a seperate governemt that can run there own way.

 

AND YES - the Tal Shiar were defeated at that battle agains the founders homeworld but unlike the Obsidian Order, who were completly defeated and no ships left, the Tal Shiar lived on.

 

The reason i still think that Tal Shiar is more powerful than Section 31 is because although Section 31 still remains strong - They don't have any ships (I think if they did then Section 31 would be more well know throughout StarFleet) Where as the Tal Shiar still have ships, a leader, and a strong place in the Romulan Governemt

 

Edit: I also can't see Section 31 being a large organisation

[GhostShadow]

Look at my Pic, KOVEL. He is the chairman to the Tal Shiar. he is still alive even after the Attk on the founders, beacuse he never went. Enabirn Tain was a dumb @$$ and went with the fleet to attk The founders and he was caputered and later died. Colonel Lovok went to the Attk. on the founderds and it was later revieled that Lovok was a founder.

 

Since Enabrin Tain was the Leader of the Obsidean Order and he was killed, the founders killed the Obsidean Order. Only a few Tal Shiar Soldiers where killed not the leader of the Tal Shiar.

 

And the Changling that imperonated Lovok said " Both the Tal Shiar And the Obsidean order where ruthless efective organizations" They never mentioned any thing about Section 31, and its not beacuse they didnt know about section 31.

 

I dont know about the Obsidean Order but the Tal Shiar continues to exist even after the Dominion war in the Books. And if you do watch the rest of the domnion war you will see ppl talking about the the obsidean order being defeated.

 

 

 

[TFMF]

I'm not sure if the founders were aware of Section 31's existance - OR - most likley -didn't think they posed a threat - the Founders always seemed to know everything about everything - and we knew they had changelings on earth.

 

The Tal Shiar didn't need to hide there existance like them as they have power (wouldn't be surprised to see them running the place)

 

So basically it gets down to this

 

- Obsidian Order = Defeated

- Section 31 = Weak but still hanging in there

- Tal Shiar = Pure Power

[GhostShadow]

lol, i will second that mothion :) ( i am not biased )

[TFMF]

Oh yeah and i don't think the CIA were ever really in this discussion :)

[queenhank]

One thing you've gotta remember is that Section 31 is not an organization. It is a section of Starfleet, which (presumably) dates back to the inception of its charter. The Tal Shiar are their own government, essentially. The Obsidian Order is supposed to be a part of the Cardassian military, but has gotten far too much power, and is pretty much a separate entity, as well. Section 31 does have ships, because every Starfleet ship is just as likely to house Section 31 members as any other. To say Section 31 has no ships is rather like saying that Nebraska doesn't have its own aircraft carriers.

[TFMF]

One thing you've gotta remember is that Section 31 is not an organization. It is a section of Starfleet' date=' which (presumably) dates back to the inception of its charter. The Tal Shiar are their own government, essentially. The Obsidian Order is supposed to be a part of the Cardassian military, but has gotten far too much power, and is pretty much a separate entity, as well. Section 31 does have ships, because every Starfleet ship is just as likely to house Section 31 members as any other. To say Section 31 has no ships is rather like saying that Nebraska doesn't have its own aircraft carriers.[/quote']

 

yeah but section 31 dosn't control those ships. And although the Obsidian Order was a part of Cardassian Military - they wern't permitted to have any ships (which they did) so they may have been designed as research.

 

Section 31 wouldn't have ships that they controled and if they did - i think the Founders would have included them in there plan to destroy the Obsidian Order + Tal Shiar. EITHER that or Section 31 does control ships (A few at most) but dosn't do much with there ships that could be perceived as threatening.

 

+ if section 31 did have ships i really don't see how they could be such a secretive section in Starfleet.

 

OH - and Sloan said that Section 31 was a SELECT GROUP OF PEOPLE - so it couldn't really be a large organisation

[TetsuoShima]

Well, the fact that Section 31 is small and 'not materialistically powerfull' is their main strength and theri main weakness. It keeps them hidden, but it also makes that they have to try and manipulate others to get things done. And appart from the 'startrek heroes' they do a pretty good job at manipulation I think. They did get the founders infected (hahaa, beat them at their own game, that's cool!!!).

[queenhank]

I'd be willing to bet they have at least one operative on board each ship. And getting a ship to go where you want isn't all that hard...

[TFMF]

I'd be willing to bet they have at least one operative on board each ship. And getting a ship to go where you want isn't all that hard...

 

So your saying that Section 31 is controling those ships almost - i really don't think so. And i doubt they'd have enough operatives to do that - remember SELECT GROUP OF PEOPLE - so i don't think having an operative on each starship would be possible - or nessicary

[queenhank]

"Select group of people" can mean anything, and he was probably lying anyways. Section 31 could be anything, they could be doing anything, we don't know. That's why I say they're a *real* secretive organization: nobody knows anything. It's possible that half of the members of Starfleet think they're one of a "select group". It's also possible that Section 31, as an organization, never actually existed, and it was never more than a couple people. Having ships does not make for good secrecy; not having any ships does. I mean, if the US had wanted to spy on Japan in WWII, which way would have been better: a whole ship full of American "spies" in some Japanese harbor, or a single operative who comes over on some other ship?

[TFMF]

Exactly - so if they did have ships then i think they'd be a little bit more well known both with the Founders and with Starfleet. I'd still like to think of Section 31 as a small organisation that relies on secrecy alone to carry out objectives

[GhostShadow]

Admrial Fujisaki!!!!!!!! that is the Admrial that the Tal Shiar Assanated. They killed him with out any connections leading back to Tal Shiar. Tal Shiar Made it look like natural causes. ;) it is sad i remember this durning my webpage design calss lol

[GhostShadow]

has any one but TFMF and I notice who is in the back round of my Avatar?? look closely LAMO

[TetsuoShima]

It is someone of the 'better/more popular' (LOL) agency... :D

[TFMF]

It is someone of the 'better/more popular' (LOL) agency... :D

 

You are right - about who it is.....but that last part - perhaps more popular but BETTER....oh no ;)