BSG - 2x10 - Pegasus

[Ulysses]

some very intresting views on this episode, for a gripping episode all over. I also agree that the only person that can end this madness of the two battlestars taking on each other is the president, she has to let caine know that the prority is protecting the fleet.....somehow i cant see the pegasus featuring in the main plot of BSG, and if my memory services me well in the old battlestar the galactica and pegasus drifts on doing there own mission.

 

I think you have to watch the old version of the pegeus, as you will see that the original cain is gun-ho type attitude and does not think of the bigger picture about the suvival of the fleet, this is also mirrored in this episode as well,

 

Arcainis is correct the galactica crew dont see the cylon sharon as the evil enermy, unlike the pegeus crew.

[timewolf]

Yeah, after watching Xena turn out to be a Cylon, I get a funny feeling the Ensign Ro is one too. But, she really doesn't need to be one. Lloyde Bridges didn't see eye to eye with Lorne Green.

 

About raping cylons -- It is beneath the dignity of men. Not that cylons deserve any respect or trust (Including Sharon 2).

 

After the death of 20 or 120 billion people survival is the only imperative and the show has to get back to this fact soon.

 

As far as survival, Wow the Pegasus is beautiful but the name of the show is BSG not BSP so we know her fate.

 

Too bad Sheba didn't come along with the package.

[quig69]

It will be interesting to see how they wrap up the story. I can't see the two battlestars going head to head. Not only is it a waste of life, but of resourses on both sides. I also can't see this version of Cain sacrificing herself for the fleet like Lloyd Bridges' version did in the origional series. I do not think she will turn out to be a cylon, just crazy. Maybe if Cain as is as bad as their XO was "joking" about her some of her crew will join the Galactica and bring supplies with them(like parts and vipers)

[SuperK]

I do like the showing of humanity in a darker light

 

Yeah, we sure get plenty of that. I think a feather would knock me over if a significant character showed up without some kind of major character flaw.

 

I mean really, there are people out there that aren't drunks, having drug induced visions, insubornate etc.

 

Common, give me just one wholesome character.. just one!

 

BK

 

 

[Furious]

- Condones rape. There is no way they will get information from the Cylon by rape. Aside from the moral issues, such treatment is counter effective to effect intelligence gathering. It also as a detrimental effect on the crew, and good order and discipline. A great leader would never allow such behavior, let alone condone it. (as an aside, where were the Galactica guards? Wasn’t Adama aware of the “interrogation†and briefed as to the methods to be used?)

 

There is nothing morallying wrong. Cylons are freaking Uber-Nazis who comitted mass genocide. Plus they aren't humans.

[NeverMalchik]

I was a bit disapointed by this episode. First of all, I have difficulties with the age of the Admiral, she is way too young. You see this kind of error (in my point of vue) in many movies and series. This aside, I just want to reply to all the 'rape' question.

 

This is my opinion, I don't want to piss anyone. It is true that there is a significan cleavage in the psychy between the Pegasus and Galactica crew. Sure Pegasus crew hate Cylons, so as Galactica crew... The rape is an act of hatered and power domination, and when someone says :"There is nothing wrong with raping Cylons. They are uber nazis", I cannot agree to this line of thinking. Sure there is a war, sure you can compare Cylons with Nazis, but even in the Nazis rank, you had some individuals fighting against their own. I think, having this particular Cylon acting like if she wants to join the other side shows that you can't put everybody in the same basket, true it is much more easier to drawn in the racist pool, than try to keep you head above the surface and see that not everybody is the same. By the reaaction of Helo and the Chief, you can see that the rape is not an acceptable act. True those two have feeling for the Cylon, but if you ask me, any member of the Galactica crew will be against such act, even if her kind represent the enemy. Ok I stop there, I'm not on BsG subject anymore...

 

One think I really look foward too, is how the doctor will deal with his two Cylons female... ummm I don't think that the one 'living' in his 'imagination' will take kindly that he fall for the real one....

[NeverMalchik]

There is nothing morallying wrong. Cylons are freaking Uber-Nazis who comitted mass genocide. Plus they aren't humans.

 

oh! So because they are not human, it make it right. This is a strange analogy. This is your opinion, but in my point of view, it show a closed mind.

[starcrunch]

I don't want to elaborate too much on this topic, but I must say that this episode was awesome. I really dislike them bringing in ensign Roe to play Admiral Kain, I've never liked her. Anyway considering that Lloyd Bridges played the original Kain I guess they had to bring in someone alot different.

 

The Pegasus itself is really cool Battlestar, it looks alot more like the old one.

 

Like so many others I have to say that I don't understand why the President didn't take a more dominant role when dealing with Kain, I realize Kain probably doesn't recognize her authority because of the remark she made to Adama, but c'mon. It's obvious Kain and her crew are just looking out for numero uno, and that they have no interest in the fleet. I just can't understand why Adama her took her crap to begin with, I mean look, there really is no more government so why bow down to a superior officer, I'd be like hey we made it this far by ourselvesso if you want to join our party and help you can but there is no way I'm going to bow down to you. Which is exactly whats happening when the show ended, so too little too late.

[Ulysses]

I dunno i like the look of the pegeus, BUT i prefer the good olde galactica, as she is old, bulky and simple.

 

Actually the cheif and helo's re-action I agree with, yeah the cylons are the enermy in the show, but it also reflects todays modern morales in combat and the treatment of POW's which sharon is. saying that the president ordered one to be blown out of the airlock in season 1 as well lol...oh i dunno

[Elessar]

There are a lot of moral and ethical angles to this episode which is what made it so wonderful. The fact that it has people on both sides of the fence proves its a cusp in human morality.......treatment of the enemy. And it may have been unintentional, but it's of course a pretty fair representation of recent political events, without going into it - the treatment of POWs by the American gov't.

 

I'm not saying the show takes a stance either way because we haven't seen the conclusion. IMO it will be very telling to see Adama's reaction and many others' reactions to what Chief and Helo did based on the fact that Sharon was being raped.

 

Obviously the Pegasus crew will abhor them but what about the Galactica crew? There you will have mixed ideas... Chief is very close to everyone, Helo is part of the family yet more of a rift lies between him and the crew because of they felt about the first Sharon, having shot Adama. And the fact that Helo is with Sharon doesn't make him popular of course. So will the individuals back Helo as much as Chief, and Chief was really the one who directly killed the guy. What will Cally think, she was the one who killed Sharon 1, will she condone what Chief did to defend Sharon 2?

 

The biggest question in my mind is Adama's reaction. Even once they get Chief and Helo back to Galactica, will they be off the hook? Most likely not, while not executed, how favorably will Adama look on the circumstances? Will he think it was justified based on the atrocity of what Thorn was doing? Will he THINK IT WAS an atrocity? I hope to the Gods he will, if there's anyone on the show is closEST to being of nearly spotless ethical character it's Adama. Plus she's saved his ass enough times IMO to warrant a little consideration.

 

I think one of the directions the show is going is to show that the Cylons may have made some of their agents SO human that they're TOO human for their own good. It may sound a little cliche but they may be aiming towards the idea that silica pathways or neural pathways - both are living creatures.

 

Yes the cylons butchered billions, but those were actions without conscience or guilt. What if the Cylon-models are so human that some of them (Sharon model) are capable of guilt? The biggest question that I kind of see burgeoning from this series is that of forgiveness and redemption...

 

 

Who will accept Sharon as someone who is trying to redeem herself, who will accept her as a defector who they can trust? Has she done enough to redeem herself... Are there people who will NEVER feel like she can be redeemed.

 

Is her very existence unreconcilable, is it impossible to forgive her for what she is?

 

The fact that Helo fell in love with her before he knew what she was is the only reason he ever did....... Same with Chief. But now that love is forcing people to re examine whether it's such a simple issue anymore.

 

And for my own ethical opinion on the matter, rape is about violation... There comes a point when in all practicality, she might as well be human because her screams and terror are just as real, even if they are produced by silica instead of carbon. Typically the kind of person who could rape a Cylon who looked, acted, sounded, felt and thought like a Human with zero compunction as Lt Thorn is capable - is probably the same kind of person who could rape an ordinary human being.

[Deanor]

One thought that I have not seen in much detail on the boards yet is.... How has the Pegasus and it's compliment of Viper Mark VII's with their modern computers and networks avoided the Cylon virus attacks? The pilot showed a single cylon raider disabling a whole squadron of Viper Mark VII's with almost no effort, and they talked about the same thing happening to the modern battlestar systems. The second Lt. Gheta (sp?) networked Galactica's systems, the cylons started hacking their systems. I see two possible explainations. One, the Pegasus has managed to stay either out of range of cylons or surprise attack them before they disabled their systems. Two, the Pegasus is already under cylon control.

[Elessar]

Someone mentioned this either here or at another board I was reading on.

 

The explanation offered was that something in the conversation between Cain and Adama was mentioned referring to the Pegasus being in drydock. I think they took the implication that all of Pegasus' computer systems were shut down (?) so the Cylons couldn't access their computer systems...

 

The only explanation from that would be that they powered up and jumped IMMEDIATELY before the Cylons could virus-rape them. :rolleyes: It's a little farfetched I know.

[Deanor]

I'm sorry. I should have been been more clear. Yes, Admiral Cain did give that strange story about the Pegasus computers being offline when the cylons attacked, then jumping away. I am thinking after that, the Pegasus has supposedly been attacking cyclons since then. How are they not exposed by their advanced computer systems and networks?

[Elessar]

Oh right yeah, good point. They haven't mentioned anything about "un-networking" their computer systems or any of that...

 

Plus I think there's a lot about Pegasus' more advanced technology that simply couldn't be "unhooked", Baltar's "CMP Program" I think they called it which controls all of their navigation was totally cracked by the cylons. They'd have to manually navigate like Galactica does.

 

Got me :thinking:

[Centurion]

Best episode so far. The attempted rape scene was a little over the edge, though. They should have sticked with the usual torture (interrogation, beating and so on).

 

I didn't like Cain and her crew. What a bunch of thugs! It's difficult to believe that such people would be entrusted with Battlestar Pegasus. I hope the Cylons get them! :D

 

Adama should have asked for Roslin's help when things started to get ugly (with the reassignments etc.), but he is obviously too stubborn to do that.

 

BTW, Battlestar Pegasus looks amazing. I'd like to see that ship renamed Galactica... :)

[Furious]

You people amaze me. Cylons are evil toasters who killed billions and raped the surviving women. They knew what they were doing. Sharon DID NOT defect. She is only helping Galactica because it is in her best interest. Gina (Pegasus six) was reponsible for the death of 800 men. Murder is worse then rape and she got what she deserved.

 

About POW treatment. The colonials don't have a geneva convention. They abuse human prisoners so why are Cylons any different. Besides Cylons are killing machines who will never change their mind. The human form are not "too human". They never were they just simulate emotion. Watch Litmus. An Aaron Doral model blows himself up. Emotional humans would never do that. Heck if Leoben was human he would have spilled the beans when he got tortured.

[bcallear]

For me personally, this has been the most gripping BSG ep to date. I think it has plunged the series into a new depth on darkness, the brutality of the Pegasus crew has given the series (in my opinion) a more sinister feel... I think the producers were very brave to include the attempted rape scene, and I think it has added an edgy realism that I have never seen before in this type of show.

 

 

[spencer39]

hey people.

 

I really think the inflection point here is the rape theme. Torture is not new to the colonial fleet methods, as shown in the ep Starbuck tortures the cylon prisoner, which was a man, and then the president sends him to the stars.

 

So, this levels the Galactica way almost to the Pegasus way. The diference? The treatment to the woman model, and obviously, the rape of the prisioner. Now, is it ok? Will the "it is a machine" excuse still work? The writers are pushing us to edge, with all these things, the baby, the relationship between Helo and Sharon, etc.

 

So how to define the frontier of being good and of being hypocrite? The answer is really unknow yet, well, this thread is the proof of that.

 

Another thing that really got me wondering is if the Pegasus crew knows all the cylon model that Galactica already have met. Pretty intriguing, the possibility of other cylons being in key positions inside the ship.

 

Oh well, I'll stop here :p It will be a long time till January...! :(

 

Spencer B)

[doctorsmith]

Well, another problem entirely is a matter of logical approach. There are other ways, even beyond physical brutality, to torture someone. I believe I wrote in this discussion threat that I was uncertain why they didn't merely try to access whatever mechanical systems are in her brain. Obviously she has some kind of interface, which is how she accessed the Galactica's systems to purge the virus. Albeit with a fiber optic cable stuck up her wrist.

 

Instead they have the official "ride 'em, cowboy" approach. Hardly seems well thought out. You might expect the guards to pull something like that, for fun, once they feel they've gotten all the info out of her, but as a primary method it seems . . . dodgy. To say the least.

 

Truth serum? Hook her up to an EEG? On face value it's easy to scoff at these suggestions. I mean, would these things even work on a clyon? And that, actually, is my point. We don't know. Hell, the people in the show don’t know. We're in the second season, and they don't even know how much of the human looking cylons is machine and how much is biological. And they haven't even tried to figure out. At best Baltar was fiddling with a "cylon detector" which we’ve rarely seen or even heard mentioned since. Yet on a more practical front, the first human cylon they captured was tortured by repeatedly dunking his head in a bucket of water. Then they flushed him out an airlock.

 

"To know thy enemy." Basic military strategy; information is essential for proper planning and devising counter-measures. They should have dissected the first prisoner. Ripped out wires, guts, and all. Found out what the hell he was, how he works. Everything. But instead they tortured and then executed him, losing the body in the process. And the Galactica's Sharon? Apparently her corpse is still sitting in a morgue freezer unit, for all practical purposes forgotten in all but memory. And the Pegasus people? Having apparently broken their prisoner, they’ve now got her chained in the middle of a huge cell with large glass windows – apparently everything but a viewing balcony and storage station for opera glasses. As if the "tortured cylon show" has replaced movie night for the crew of the Pegasus.

 

Torture. Rape. Execution. Is it "edgy?" Sure. Is it smart sci-fi? Eh, not really. Is it a smart plot device. Not exactly, at least if you really want to consider the Galactica as run by military trained men and women sworn to do everything it takes to save their people. Exploiting the emotions of your viewers is not only smart, it’s wise, but best achieved if it compliments the show. Let’s face it, even Hogan’s Heroes probably would have figured out how to hotwire a Centurion and have it take out Schultz by now.

 

Sigh. At least things like this haven’t made the series unwatchable. In fact, I’m still more than happy to watch it, as I’m sure the majority of viewers are. But this will get ridiculous if by the third or fourth season they still haven’t gotten their act together. For now, it’s at least worth pointing out.

[Elessar]

I really don't see where you come up with this "exploiting the viewers emotions" ??

 

Just because it's sci fi doesn't mean every single plot device has to be laced with technobabble and involve technology...

 

If I wanted that I'd stick to watching TNG reruns because after seeing a lot of other sci fi out there, I've realized that not ALL of it, but 85% of TNG was devoid of humanity. I'm not making this a tirade against TNG, but I'm making a point and using it as an example.

 

In a storyline replete with technology, something as simplistic as rape and violence is intended to show us that at the very core of human flaws there is no shiny disruptor to vaporize a person in an instant, or a "mental rape" like even in Enterprise's 'Fusion'.

 

What Thorn did wasn't motivated by interrogation, that's exactly the underlying morality check that I think is going to come out of the continuation. They didn't have any information to get from Gina, Admiral Cain even said so, they just raped her for vengeance, not for interrogation.

 

And all these ideas about plugging into her brain and downloading her memories... The fact that didn't happen is exactly why this show isn't crap. They can't whip magical technology out of their hats, hell it took Baltar half the season to get a working Cylon detector when TNG would have invented it in 5 minutes. And now he's saying it doesn't work!

 

The difference is this show isn't about technology, it's about humanity, the way the very BEST (but not nearly every) Star Trek episodes were written. Nearly every week of BSG for me is like Inner Light, The Visitor, Ties of Blood and Water, Real Life, etc.

 

I went off on a tangent but my point was, I don't see how the rape was "exploiting emotion". :thinking: