Tenebrae Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Why do you insist that the human genetic code is "sacred" or "taboo"? It is a chemical process and nothing more. For that matter -we- are chemical processes and nothing more. If you deny yourself a useful tool simply because it reminds you uncomfortably of your mortality, you have uselessly and pointlessly crippled yourself. Chairman Sheng-ji Yang "Looking God in the Eye" A classic quote from Alpha Centauri. Dr. Bashir is of course, good proof that genetic engineering can lead to better, smarter, stronger officers... and it's been how many years since the eugenics war? Anyway, it's clear that the technology for advanced genetic engineering in the Star Trek universe is available and can bestow great mental and physical benefits... so, why aren't the Romulans/Cardassians etc. making use of this? Are we to assume they had similar problems in the past? I think that it might be nice to have a group of genetic augments running around the Alpha quadrant again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 I agree... the Cardassians, at the very least, would probably have used it, either directly on themselves or through reengineering Bajorans (i.e. when they conquered Bajor), Dominion-style... or did they? I haven't watched a lot of DS9. The Klingons wouldn't touch it (racial pride), and I'm assuming that the Federation doesn't allow it under a tenet of forced equivalency between people and to prevent the inherent troubles of an 'enhanced' / 'baseline' racial split. Also, I don't really see the Romulans doing it, but I think the Vulcans -would- do it, as a logical extension of evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x5315 Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 the clingons did kind of use it, that's how come in TOS they don't have head ridges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Heh... it's strange that they would, given their pride... Reverse Continuity! :D Revcon strikes again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenhank Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Their pride, like most other things when it comes to the Klingons, isn't all it's cracked up to be. They act high and mgihty, but in the end, they just want to win the battle. Even their strict honor codes can be interpreted to mean many different things, depending upon who's doing the interpreting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beawulf Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 I think they should have gone back to some genetic engineering with the careful guidance of the denobulans. Can definately help society without having augments or people who are better beyond the fact that they are free from genetic diseases and disorders. what's wrong with that :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 The problem is, when it comes to genetic engineering, it's hard to -not- push it to it's fullest potential (i.e. improving non-disease aspects as well as curing genetic diseases). It's hard not to try and make things as good as they can be... whether it's in conventional engineering with planned obsolescence or genetic engineering with not implementing improvements when they're so easy to do.. The issue of genetic enhancement would disappear if it were possible to rewrite DNA and implement such improvements during the lifetime of the creature (i.e. so that the changes could be applied to -everyone-, not just those who choose to have better children). Even then, you'd have the 'We should not play god' crowd who would never submit to genetic enhancement. There would be an enhanced / non-enhanced divide regardless of what's done. ... for instance, what if someone figured out how to redesign, say, a mouse to have a digestive system that was twice as efficient as normal? Would it be ethical to implement such a modification in humans to lower food requirements, and thus the strain on the environment? Hey, maybe we should focus on detaching nervous system from body, so that we could update bodies while keeping the brain intact, or maybe work out a way to copy minds to new bodies so we could continually improve our bodies genetically without people being left behind... *sigh* ... or we could simply figure out how to manage until we get into space and open that route as a release valve for overpopulation... such stuff like I mentioned above is like contemplating rocket design before inventing fire or the wheel ^^' ... all of this being, of course a roundabout way of underlining that as long as we stick to the idea that the human body musn't be tampered with (i.e. like in Star Trek), the more our bodies will hold us back from being able to evolve ourselves to new situations. Star Trek's view of 'human genetic purity' may be more of a reflection of current philosophies (or even better, 'theosophies') than an actual projection of humanity in three hundred years ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDad Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 What if Hitler or Stalin had the advanced genetic technology to improve the human race? Would the Master Race or the New Soviet Man they envisioned be an improvement on the species? Has anyone even read 'Brave New World'? Even then, you'd have the 'We should not play god' crowd who would never submit to genetic enhancement. There would be an enhanced / non-enhanced divide regardless of what's done. There is a reason we should not "play God". We are not good at it. Do a search on eugenics and see what turns up. That is what you are actually talking about. Arbeit Macht Frei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Genetic engineering and eugenics are totally different things... one is the manipulation of our genetic code, and the other is the process of selective breeding applied to humanity. It's true, though, that without VERY careful planning, reengineering will result in eugenics-type processes going on, either by 'baselines' culling 'enhanced' or vice versa -_-'... eugenics would be a socially induced side effect that would result from just going full roar into manipulating the human genome... but NOT a reason to not do it at all, ever. Reengineering ourselves could help us out enormously in the long run... if used carefully, and in a planned way to avoid eugenics-style mass murder. Edit: Unfortunately, caution isn't one of our strong points, so what is likely to happen is that inevitably, we'll re-engineer ourselves in the near or somewhat near future, big wars will happen between engineered and non-engineered people, and either one side will wipe out the other, they'll go their seperate ways, or (unlikely) they'll make peace and work for a common future. That is likely to be inevitable, but instead of sticking our heads in the sand and say 'no, no!', we should try and come up with a plan that would allow us to reengineer our race in a controlled, equitable way, and come up with plans for the people who wouldn't go along with it, or for the ones that DO go along with it (depending on which is in the majority). Banning -will not work-, so planning for what will happen may be our best option. Odds are, there won't be ANY scenario that will be non-violent until we have space travel and begin sending out colony ships / exploration teams to nearby systems, whereupon the divide of time dilation will solve many of the problems. Frankly, though, I do forsee conflicts between enhanced and non-enhanced people, either through the non-enhanced people's fear of the enhanced people, or the enhanced people's contempt for the non-enhanced. It's not a matter of whether or not, but when and how we'll deal with it. Either way, in three or four hundred years, I bet the whole thing will have resolved itself, and I really suspect that the 'engineered' people will be the winners... just hopefully not through violence and murder. Edit 2: Note that I don't say I like this idea... but that I think it's inevitable that it will happen eventually. Personally, the idea scares the hell out of me, but it's better to address and plan for fearful situations than ignore them by trying to think through all the possible ways they could play out. I seriously doubt we won't have reengineered ourselves at all in three or four centuries, and will probably have made signifigant changes by then. Better to deal with it now (at least in theory) before some future Hitler or Stalin twists the technology in horrible ways and forces us to deal with it -_-'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 SNIPPET What if Hitler or Stalin had the advanced genetic technology to improve the human race? Gosh, what a nightmare that would be! As it was, many people suffered at the hands of the nazis during their foray into genetics. Thank goodness Hitler and his nazis imploded. c4 :thinking: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenhank Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Well, it's doubtful that we could ever get to the point of having a war between augments and non-augments in real life. Mostly because it's doubtful we'll ever get to the point of being able to successfully make augments. Much more likely is that people will continue to experiment without knowing very much of what our genome does (we've mapped it, but not reallly deciphered it), and will cause either the downfall of humanity (due to some inadvertantly created super-virus), or the deaths of everybody who gets "augmented". We just don't have the knowledge necessary to actually manipulate DNA successfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted October 12, 2005 Author Share Posted October 12, 2005 I think my problem is that basically they're assuming that the Federation/Human moral code is universal... Quite frankly, I'd have thought the likes of the Cardassians and Romulans would be ALL OVER this stuff though. I'd say that likely, a race of genetically augmented humans/aliens could probably wreak a very special brand of havoc in the alpha quadrant... They just keep getting bad press. Also - it's a misconception that Hitler used Eugenics. All he really did was kill off groups of people he didn't like. About all he did was make sensible discussion about the topic impossible because anytime you mention it, people will have a knee jerk reaction and assume you spend your spare time goose-stepping around in a brown uniform. Obviously the Klingons had a few problems with it - but honour and pride are something the Klingons seem to lack, where's the honour in attacking someone when you're cloaked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 There are actually some eps (at least one) dealing with this issue concerning Cardassians. It appeared they weren't very fond of it, at least Garak wasn't and he's one Cardassian. Of course, that still doesn't say much about the Cardassians as a race... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted October 12, 2005 Author Share Posted October 12, 2005 Don't they notice that there was a signature of Cardassian genetic engineering about some DNA? I'd have thought that was a fair indication that they were actually very much familiar with the subject. It strikes me as hugely discriminatory of the Federation to have so many laws against genetic engineering as well. The episode where Bashir meets the other augments seems to suggest it's the fact that the Federation are forcing it underground that causes bad resequencing - resulting in the strange behaviour of the augments. Also, we know that the Founders - to a considerable but unknown extent - modified... or even created from scratch, the Vorta and Jem'Hadar... it always seems strange to me that the Jem'Hadar never seem to be either that much stronger or better, which given the nature of the Jem'Hadar seems a bit foolish... although I suppose they don't need to eat or sleep but still, you'd think they'd be more resistant to damage and just a lot stronger than humans... capable of taking more than just a slap from Colm Meaney I just liked the idea of the Nietzschians in Andromeda... and as that was essentially to be in Star Trek, it's pretty clear that Roddenbury had some designs on having Augments be a part of the universe again - well, that's just an assumption but not an unreasonable one. Although I suppose one could see the Borg as, in some ways, related to this. It's suggested that there is some rewriting of DNA in ENT "Regeneration" and obviously the Borg are trying for "perfection"... although, it's hard to actually think of them evolving, given the fact that drones are generally slow moving and not all that great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Well' date=' it's doubtful that we could ever get to the point of having a war between augments and non-augments in real life. Mostly because it's doubtful we'll ever get to the point of being able to successfully make augments. Much more likely is that people will continue to experiment without knowing very much of what our genome does (we've mapped it, but not reallly deciphered it), and will cause either the downfall of humanity (due to some inadvertantly created super-virus), or the deaths of everybody who gets "augmented". We just don't have the knowledge necessary to actually manipulate DNA successfully.[/quote'] That's the weird thing about knowledge... we get more and more every day ^^... they were saying that heavier than air flight was impossible only a decade or so before the Wright Brothers took off in their prototype ;) Edit: corrected 'humans couldn't fly' by replacing it with 'heavier than air flight was impossible'... what a dumb mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDad Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Also - it's a misconception that Hitler used Eugenics. All he really did was kill off groups of people he didn't like. About all he did was make sensible discussion about the topic impossible because anytime you mention it, people will have a knee jerk reaction and assume you spend your spare time goose-stepping around in a brown uniform. You are misinformed. "The leaders in the German sterilization movement state repeatedly that their legislation was formulated after careful study of the California experiment as reported by Mr. Gosney and Dr. [Paul] Popenoe. It would have been impossible, they say, to understake such a venture involving some 1 million people without drawing heavily upon previous experience elsewhere." http://www.spectacle.org/997/richmond.html I suggest anyone who wishes to discuss eugenics should start by talking with all the americans who were forcibly sterilized under our eugenics program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcant Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 I seem to remember a paragraph in Mien Kampf where the author promoted the idea that adoption was better than passing on defective genes, I never thought I would agree with Hitler, but there is a couple who live close to me who are genetically incompatable, they have so far had six children, none of whom have lived past 5 due to heart defects which where totally predictable! These childrens short lives have been dominated by surgery and hospital stays. where the hell do this couple get off producing flawed children to a short life of suffering just so they can persue the dream of having a "child of their own" This is regardless of the cost to th public purse, National Health Service, This is one case where I think charges of child cruelty should be brought against people, why the hell cant they just adopt, or get quietly knocked up by the lodger! Anyway thats my personal rant over, back to star trek, if humans had effficient methods of genetic manipulation, we would use it, because thats the type of people we are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted October 12, 2005 Author Share Posted October 12, 2005 "The leaders in the German sterilization movement state repeatedly that their legislation was formulated after careful study of the California experiment as reported by Mr. Gosney and Dr. [Paul] Popenoe. It would have been impossible, they say, to understake such a venture involving some 1 million people without drawing heavily upon previous experience elsewhere." Yes - because the Nazis were well known for telling the truth. They were trying to enforce racial purity - for which there is no biological basis. That Hitler favoured Jews is proof he wasn't all that interested in material improvements of anything but the somewhat abstract idea of racial purity. But, I feel this topic has been somewhat derailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenhank Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 That's the weird thing about knowledge... we get more and more every day ^^... they were saying that heavier than air flight was impossible only a decade or so before the Wright Brothers took off in their prototype ;) Thing is with DNA, we're not going to have any real "breakthroughs". The way we'll come to understand our own genome is through very slow and methodic testing and experimentation. Until we completely understand the function of every part of the human genome, we cannot safely do ANY genetic engineering. However, I doubt that any person in the position to do said engineering will heed that warning, and will likely err on the side of destroying the human race with a new super virus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Actually, the way things are, we'll have to decipher the mechanics of protein generation, patterning, and folding before we can -really- do much with genetics... and THAT is a job that makes mapping the human genome look like single digit arithmetic ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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