GhostShadow Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I was watching the eps "Rocks and shoals" and the Jem Hedar 3rd seemed pretty honorable b/c he gave his Vorta leader un-wavering loyalty even though the Vorta Keven, betrayed the JemHedar. So i was thinking. Do Jem Hedar actualy have honor, or do they do it b/c they are just progrmaed that way. I am really unsure b/c they are sentient beings, they can make choices, and some Jem Hedar have been known to go aginst the Vorta. Klingons on the other hand always get honor out of the coices they make. so i think my question is, " Whos Honor is more pure " is it the Jem Hedar whos motto is "victory is life" then crash their ships into the enemy. OR Kilngons who "serve the empire". and charge into a hopeless situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 hmmm....there both very honerable - the Jem Haddar serve the Founders and would do anything for them (in the episode The Ship - we saw the Jem Haddar commit suicide cause they let a Founder die) But the Klingons base there entire lives around honor - serving the empire dying in battle and things like that - the rituals they perform and everything - all very honerable So they are both honerable in different ways.... very difficult to answer.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 But i would say that the Klingons have gotten soft. They are to political now. Like Gowlron, he has been hanging out w/ the federation drinking root beer for to long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 imo they both have no real honour. But that's just because they don't comply with my requirements to be honourable. If you compare whether they are honourable or not each by their own standards, then they both are honourable. If you judge then by the opposite sides honour, then neither has honour and if you judge them by my standard, then too neither has honour! So, since it's 2 on 1, I say neither race is really honourable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 I agree - Klingon honour isn't really what I'd call. I mean, they consider it a glorious victory to sneak up on a lightly armed ship while cloaked and blow it up. Not really sure I see much honour in that. Jem'Hadar seem to be pretty changable, although I assume that is because if they just blindly followed the Vorta all the time, then a few episodes would have been a bit boring but I'd say that it would be fair to assume - given the resources expended to eliminate rogue Jem'Hadar that the vast majority follow orders... there isn't any real honour in that. So I agree with Tetsuo - bit of a loaded question as neither one really exhibits much honour. Jem'Hadar are clearly better warrirors though - literally bred for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 11, 2005 Author Share Posted November 11, 2005 isnt it honorable to die in what you believe in? The JemHedar Obivoulsy have the capibility of choosing to die for the founders or not. The Klingons are the same way, they will die for the glory of the empire. So i would say that they have honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 imo you cannot serve dis-honourable people and be honourable yourself, neither can you be honourable and not respect other peoples customs/beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Honor does not include a life obsessed with the seeking and perpetrating of violence and murder. Sorry guys. Klingon honor and Gem Hadar honor are rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 It may seem dishonerable to you but to them it is - we are basing our decisions on what we think - it's really a comparison of the two species Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Okay, then I'll put it this way. Gem Hadar fight for oppression and control by another race. Klingons fight for glory. Apples and oranges, people. But in my opinion, neither is really honorable. As Gowron once said, confusing motives with actions is a human trait. So let's examine the actions. Violence, murder, oppression. Klingons and Gem Hadar hate peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Well fighting for your people is honerable - that's what there doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 That's really a foolish statement. "Your people" are not right all the time, "Your people" aren't the only sentient race in the galaxy of importance, etc, etc. Besides, when it comes down to it, neither race fights for anything besides the thrill they get from violence. The only difference is that the Gem Hadar were designed for it while the Klingons just evolved that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Honour is as relative as good and evil... each has it, and many disagree that others have it if it's different from theirs. It's a cultural thing, NOT an absolute... Last I checked, sneak attacks while cloaked wasn't honorable to the Klingons unless they were doing it against something that wasn't worth fighting properly anyways... and to the Jem'Hadar, ALL actions in service to the Founders = honourable, regardless of what it is (the Founders -are- their equivalent of gods, after all...) Even as many of us look at God as embodying 'good' when He has advocated actions many of us could only call evil, the Jem'Hadar likewise would simply do the worst atrocities and consider it honourable service to their Gods, the Founders... While we may be bound by 'honour', typically in any religion, their God or Goddesses tend to be above mortal guidelines... As to disobeying the Vorta, well... that's just a matter of whether the Jem'Hadar feel that the Vorta are truly following the will of the Founders... or whether they feel that the Vorta are simply trying to fulfill their own goals... at least, that's how I see the problem. The Founders are gods to be obeyed without question, but the Vorta are simply their representatives... So, both are honourable in their own societies... and since 'honour' is society-dependant, that works fine. The question is, are we judging them by their own honour systems, or are we judging them by OURS? I thought it was implied that it was by their own... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Yeah so although YOU might not think it's not honerable - it's honerable to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 If everything is relative, then there is no sense in comparrison. Right and wrong become what I say they are, and nobody but me can judge my actions. That's anarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 don't blame me - i didn't create the topic :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 12, 2005 Author Share Posted November 12, 2005 in the Eps. to the Death in DS9, the Jem hadar broke their vow of alligence to the founders. and the other Jem Hadar found that dishonorable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Just believing in something doesn't make it a reality. The Gem Hadar's sense of what honor is was given to them by the founders as yet another means of control. It's a complete farce. The Klingon's sense of honor, stemming from their religion, is a basis for the structure and regulation of their empire. Because of their violent predisposition caused by their genetic makeup, believing in it is the only thing that creates a manageable structure. Anyone who doesn't follow it is effectively ostricized from that structure. Now, let's call a spade a spade. Klingon and Gem Hadar "honor" are nothing but means of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 If everything is relative' date=' then there is no sense in comparrison. Right and wrong become what I say they are, and nobody but me can judge my actions. That's anarchy.[/quote'] I was just pointing out that any socially defined concept is relative by nature... good and evil are no exceptions. That doesn't make them a bad thing... just don't expect every society to have matching moralities, or consider ours to be the best possible one without having some other, more quantifiable criteria to back it up. ^^ By their own standards, both are (mostly) honourable, and by our standards (which differ even among individuals) they may or may not be honourable... You don't find them honourable (and neither do I -by my standards-), but by their standards their behavior is honourable with the occasional failure. You, me, and they are ALL right... relatively speaking. If the question were, "Are they honourable by your personal standards", then I'd say no. If the question were "Are they honourable by their own standards", I'd say yes... mostly. The question given is neither, and slightly ambiguous... so maybe answer both? ... I will do that. No, neither are 'honourable' with the Klingons seeming more honourable to me for choosing their own morality, and Yes... both are mostly honourable by their own standards and neither is more honourable than the other by their own standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 I don't think that the Klingon's own viewpoint or the Gem Hadar's viewpoint can help decide this. I think a more discerning defenition of what honor means for each societal structure is what is required. Fortunately, I've come up with one. See my previous post. Really. Who is more controlled, the Gem Hadar, or the Klingons? The Klingons are more wreckless, so the Gem Hadar would be more the more controlled. Therefore, the answer I give is that that the Gem Hadar have more honor. Again, see my previous post. I am not paying either race a compliment, quite the contrary. This conclusion took me a long time to arrive at! I wonder how well it holds up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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