So hows the war on "Terror" going?

[GorunNova]

I dont care what you hear in europe b/c its not true, I live here in America, i know what goes on. ppl are not starving in the streets, ppl are not getting shot. Employment IS up, our econmoy is great, we still have the largets GDP in the WORLD!, 9 trillion dollars a friggin year! and wtf is this about ghettos?? look up the definition of a ghetto :"A section of a city occupied by a minority group".

My Reasoning and Logic teacher outlined statements much like the first sentance of this sample. Why? Because it fits the template of a fallacy known as 'willful ignorance', and her advice was to pack up shop and walk away. Statements starting with "I don't care what you..." typically mean that no matter what is said, it will be discounted.

 

The American media has been on a chokehold since before Sept. 11th... that is a fact. Network news has not been required to tell the truth for over a decade now, and the five or six media companies that own the majority of the news outlets in North America are very careful not to step on any toes with their news, whether it be the administration or other corporations.

 

... the BBC is a BIT better, but still has some bias... and Canadian media is usually EXTREMELY partisan in their perspectives, so you have to sample all the various papers and shows to piece a picture of what is -likely- the case... although TV news, both US and Canada, is next to worthless.

 

Independant news sources can be very informative, but ALSO must be taken with a grain of salt as they often are trying to push forwards their own various agendas and can lean towards conspiracy theorizing...

 

Frankly (and more than a bit ironically), the best source of news about what's happening in the United States is OUTSIDE the United States... away from the corporate and governmental chokeholds. Mostly, though... it's a matter of looking at a LOT of media and trying to get first hand accounts, and try to filter out all the various biases (and yes, even first hand accounts have biases, and often big ones!)

 

As for medicine, in the early 2000s, it was discovered by a comparison of censuses (censii?) that individual Canadians pay just over half as much as US citizens for health care, and yet they have extensive hospital and doctor coverage, with most only needing to pay for medication... 96% state-covered medical plans for the population in Canada versus 41% in the US...

 

(Also... I'm not even going to get into what I think about the term 'Americans'... a leftover of the US's 'manifest destiny' policy... There's more in America than the United States... but this is a topic for elsewhere! :D)

 

Edit: According to this page, the difference in health overhead is even worse than I thought... ;p

[Guest c4evap]

SNIPPET:

 

White people just aren't that smart to screw the system.

 

Is there a manual or something I can read that will show me how it's properly done? ;)

 

c4 :p

[Ruk]

ERM Beg to differ, there is a direct link to countries like Iran. why do you think that the british army & Royal Marines does border patrols around the iraq and iranian boarder near AL ALAMARAH which is actually located north of basra.

 

Not to belittle your experience, but naturally near the iranian border you'll see more iranians, and near the syrian border you'll see more syrians, etc. Iraqi's likewise flee across the border to avoid the military, which is another reason to keep patrols there. Failing to guard the borders is simply silly. Please note that I didn't say other nations aren't going to Iraq. I just said they are not a majority.

 

It its also common knowledge that alot of the miltia is actually forgein not iraqi..how do i know this is FACT...i was bloody out there last year for eight months.

 

It might be common knowlege, because the Bush administration is really pushing the "fight them there rather than here" angle, but the facts don't really support this.

 

During Operation Lightning this summer, only about 5% of those arrested were foreigners (mostly Saudi's - the capitol of terrorism in my opinion), again not a majority. Perhaps near the border their is a bigger difference (which would be logical).

 

Now I will grant you one thing: of the suicide bombers, most of these ARE foreigners. They are travelling to Iraq to kill Americans, because thats where they can find them. This is hardly a point on your side however, as most suicide bombers there would not have been inspired to be such without the invasion in the first place.

 

And I haven't been out there, but I do read more than just news accounts of the story. for instance paying close attention to the Iraq congressional hearings. If that info isn't reliable, then our administration is lying to us.

 

[GhostShadow]

When you guys say foreigners, i assume you mean ppl who are not native to Iraq. And these "Foreigners" are fighting in Iraq for the cause of jihad.

 

This may just be me... but... isnt it a good thing that they are coming to Iraq to fight, then we dont have to go look for them.

 

 

And GorunNova, i guess you can see it as willful ignorance, OR you can see it as cutting to the chase and not wanting to listen to other people phsyco anilyze your country and its government and citizens.

 

And you know, i would like to know how ppl get medical treatment in america, i especialy want to know how these illigals are getting medical treatment.

 

And i suffer from minor dyslexia w/ numbers, i see numbers weird sorta. i guess i saw an extra 0 on that number. sorry ;)

 

And i guess the reason i was getting annoyed was b/c the OUT side prespective of United States. Its just sad that the world cant and mostly wont see United States for what it actualy is, not a war hungry, savage slave state. But i live here, i know its not, i have grown a second skin to the ignorance of the world to America. its just deeply misunderstood.

 

And true you can buy your weapons and bullets at a wal-mart. but they really only supply rifles for hunting, and rifle bullets. you cant walk into your local wal-mart and pick up and RPG, a few crates of armour peircing bullets, and a few hand grenades.

 

and most citizens do carry fire arms. my family does. my neihboors do.. but i am not worried of being robbed. i live next to a an ex-sherrif, a sherrif, and a US marshel. I am pat of the FBI citizen training. where you learn about how the FBI investigates, and they teach you hand to hand combat in case of attk. and they took us all to their shooting gallery and let us shoot almost every thing in their armory. Sub machine guns, shotguns, glocks, beretas. So i am not afriad of being attacked b/c i can handel myself. There is a differnece betwwen being afraid and being prepared. and i am prepared.

 

I just dont think that we should pull out of Iraq, not yet. As soon as we leave terrorism will go up agian, i think that when we do go it has to be time to go. they need to defend them self.

 

and to whoever quoted ben franklen...

 

"Inter Arma Eniem Silent Leges"-In time of war, the laws fall silent (syrus)

 

"give me fredom or give me death"

 

like i said, these terrorist are not nice people,these ppl are willing to kill them self to take our freedom and to have us live in fear, i am willing to die for our fredom and to insure we live, i just wnat us to live... more appropriate people can choice how we live.

 

As good world citizens it is our job to fight terrorism with every inch and fiber in our body. We need not remember that we are Americans, European, Iraqi, Russian, ect. we need to just remember that terrorism must stop, at any cost.

 

 

 

 

[GorunNova]

Ugh... deleted that post too slowly (it was off topic), so I'll put it back in as best I can... ^^'

 

Marcus Tullius Cicero -> said "Laws are silent in time of war.", and I commented that it was a comment about how laws are forgotten in wartime, leading to atrocities...

 

Morality should never be forgotten, because without morality, how can one claim to be on the 'good' side? If the US discards morals, it will become immoral, and those of us who ARE moral can't help but condemn them.

 

Edit: In putting aside moral concerns to defeat the enemy, one becomes as bad as the enemy. By 'putting aside moral concerns', you betray your own country's ideals!

[GhostShadow]

Ugh... deleted that post too slowly (it was off topic), so I'll put it back in as best I can... ^^'

 

Marcus Tullius Cicero -> said "Laws are silent in time of war.", and I commented that it was a comment about how laws are forgotten in wartime, leading to atrocities...

 

Morality should never be forgotten, because without morality, how can one claim to be on the 'good' side? If the US discards morals, it will become immoral, and those of us who ARE moral can't help but condemn them.

 

Edit: In putting aside moral concerns to defeat the enemy, one becomes as bad as the enemy. By 'putting aside moral concerns', you betray your own country's ideals!

 

I never said that America was on the good side, b/c that would be stupid of me. Good is a matter of prespective. One mans terrorist is another mans fredom fighter.

 

all i know for sure is that i love America, i love this world, and if ppl want to desrtoy it for the cause of some misguided back-wards religion, then i will meet them on the battel feild.

 

America is not only at war b/c of moral reasons, but for american interists.

 

look it is human nature to be agrresive, to be violent, some might say thats it is human nature to kill eachother. it is human nature.. nature is law. "the law is harsh, but its the law"

 

but as the topic of this thread asks "how is the war on terror" i guess you have to look at that from a view. For the west and American interist, it is going well, for the terrorist, it is hell.

 

 

[quosego]

And i suffer from minor dyslexia w/ numbers, i see numbers weird sorta. i guess i saw an extra 0 on that number. sorry ;)

 

No problemo.

 

And i guess the reason i was getting annoyed was b/c the OUT side prespective of United States. Its just sad that the world cant and mostly wont see United States for what it actualy is, not a war hungry, savage slave state. But i live here, i know its not, i have grown a second skin to the ignorance of the world to America. its just deeply misunderstood.

 

Well I don't think the US is a savage slave state, I just don't agree with the recent actions and developments. I've not yet started to hate the US... :p

 

And true you can buy your weapons and bullets at a wal-mart. but they really only supply rifles for hunting, and rifle bullets. you cant walk into your local wal-mart and pick up and RPG, a few crates of armour peircing bullets, and a few hand grenades.

 

and most citizens do carry fire arms. my family does. my neihboors do.. but i am not worried of being robbed. i live next to a an ex-sherrif, a sherrif, and a US marshel. I am pat of the FBI citizen training. where you learn about how the FBI investigates, and they teach you hand to hand combat in case of attk. and they took us all to their shooting gallery and let us shoot almost every thing in their armory. Sub machine guns, shotguns, glocks, beretas. So i am not afriad of being attacked b/c i can handel myself. There is a differnece betwwen being afraid and being prepared. and i am prepared.

 

Well it would be nice if someone could trust the world enough so that you don't have to be prepared. But you're right it's better to be prepared than afraid..

 

I just dont think that we should pull out of Iraq, not yet. As soon as we leave terrorism will go up agian, i think that when we do go it has to be time to go. they need to defend them self.

 

True, I agree that right now there should be a presence. But I do not agree that there was ever an attack.

 

"Inter Arma Eniem Silent Leges"-In time of war, the laws fall silent (syrus)

 

Well, it shouldn't. Else we will never reach an star trek utopia.

 

"give me fredom or give me death"

 

Agreed

 

 

[GhostShadow]

it was a mis qoute on my part, it was Marcus Tullius Cicero who said that.

[Ulysses]

ERM Beg to differ' date=' there is a direct link to countries like Iran. why do you think that the british army & Royal Marines does border patrols around the iraq and iranian boarder near AL ALAMARAH which is actually located north of basra. [/i']

 

Not to belittle your experience, but naturally near the iranian border you'll see more iranians, and near the syrian border you'll see more syrians, etc. Iraqi's likewise flee across the border to avoid the military, which is another reason to keep patrols there. Failing to guard the borders is simply silly. Please note that I didn't say other nations aren't going to Iraq. I just said they are not a majority.

 

It its also common knowledge that alot of the miltia is actually forgein not iraqi..how do i know this is FACT...i was bloody out there last year for eight months.

 

 

lol no worries, its theses suicide bombers that are the main problem out there as most attacks are either suicide bombers or remote detonated explosives....what has changed since we was out there that more and more attacks are actually targeted at normal civillians....its theses people that are the ones that are suffering and us (USA & UK) are responisble for protecting theses iraqis regardless of the cost in our own troops.

 

but i agree at this rate we are going to be looking at a iraqi civil war, pulling out of iraq now will just help iraq decend into total chaos and as the invaders we still have a duty to the normal law abiding citizens to help protect them.

 

 

[bones2097]

 

not the same as normal???

 

but what do you mean ... its about what angle you look at it

 

freedom figther or terrorist???

 

who were the terrorist???

 

indians or the americans?

 

lol!!

 

you can judge till you know both side... B)

 

Well damn, good point but I kinda meant that you shouldn't kill other people no matter what... If you decide to do that anyways you're not normal in my opinion... So this means that terrorists and the coaltition are not normal and should be punished...

 

 

So let's put Bush and Bin laden in the same cell and everything will be just fine.

 

oooo,,, but ya have to admit bin laden would kick the poop outta bush....

cmon hes been train terrorist & lives in the mountians B)

 

ahhh.. only if .... it would put a smile on the majority of the worlds pop ... lol!!

[Beawulf]

"give me fredom or give me death"

 

 

I agree, and I think the terrorists would to. The main issue that is driving people to the cause of terrorism is the state of the Palestinians, and how they are denied freedoms on a daily basis. So they want freedom or death.

 

 

like i said' date=' these terrorist are not nice people,these ppl are willing to kill them self to take our freedom and to have us live in fear, i am willing to die for our fredom and to insure we live, i just wnat us to live... more appropriate people can choice how we live.[/quote']

 

I think they are willing to kill to get their freedom, or the freedom of their 'brothers'*. They arent so interested in taking yours...they arent trying to force Americans of your land are they?

 

I dont agree with the methods of terrorists, there is no justification for attacking citizens. But if we are to deal with terrorism we need to look at what is causing it, prevention is better than cure. The main cause is the plight of the palestinian people, for which America is also blamed as they supply alot of weapons and financial support to the area, and have also blocked UN efforts to step in or sanction Israel for some of its more questionable activities.

 

Attacking Iraq has also provided a cause for new terrorists, which is merely fueling the fire. But it is done, nothing can be said to turn back time. America staying there will encourage more terrorist attacks in the area, but pulling out early will more than likely lead to civil war so there isnt a clear-cut solution. Maybe a group of international peace-keepers should take over until iraq can defend its citizens?

 

 

 

*I imagine there are individuals who are taking the opportunity to kill for the sake of killing, and are using a 'cause' as justification. But these psychopaths arent limited to any particular culture. eg. sarin gas in Japan, US soldier shot unarmed teenager in custody, Israeli soldier shot 12yo girl.

[GhostShadow]

where they forcing America off their land when they crashed planes into AMerican buildings, when they bombed Londen? i dont think so, they do this b/c they are told to. Their back-ward superstition tell them that they will go to heaven w/ weamon waiting for them if the die in the name of the jihad.

 

To me that is sick, they probly find our religion to be sick too.

 

I dont think any sane human could agree w/ their methods. but attacking Iraq is bringing terroist from around the world, to fight in this cause. Now this war will tell people where their colours lie. meaning, we know who is a terroist and who will be the the ones who fight for the real fredom, not some sick demented back-ward superstition.

 

I find that hard to beileve that any soldier would shoot an un armed man w/. no reason ( unless that soldier was a terrorist ). I am sure they had reason.

 

[Antipodean]

I find that hard to beileve that any soldier would shoot an un armed man w/. no reason ( unless that soldier was a terrorist ). I am sure they had reason.

 

 

Ummm... it does happen. How naive are you?

 

And also, it seems to me that you're attacking Islam as a whole... and in truth the faith itself, doesn't actually condone terrorism. It's only a small minority of Muslims who have perverted that faith to their evil cause. Would you argue that Christianity is a terrorist faith just because the terrorists behind the Oklahoma Bombing were christians?

 

Further your claim that "they probly find our religion to be sick too" assumes that we are all Christian. Sorry mate. I think you'll find that plenty of us are not.

 

And are you actually justifying the attack on Iraq (based on LIES and DECEIT) with the excuse that "this war will tell people where their colours lie"?

 

Oh my.

 

 

[Beawulf]

I am sure they had reason.

 

Nope, no justification.

 

Isreali commander kills 13yo girl

 

US soldiers kill unarmed civillians

[wahaha]

I find that hard to beileve that any soldier would shoot an un armed man w/. no reason

 

Cops shoot 12 yr old girls with tasers in high schools. Shows how manly they are.

 

Soldiers don't have time to think or use their brains like a stupid cop should.

[Ulysses]

I find that hard to beileve that any soldier would shoot an un armed man w/. no reason ( unless that soldier was a terrorist ). I am sure they had reason.

 

 

Ummm... it does happen. How naive are you?

 

And also, it seems to me that you're attacking Islam as a whole... and in truth the faith itself, doesn't actually condone terrorism. It's only a small minority of Muslims who have perverted that faith to their evil cause. Would you argue that Christianity is a terrorist faith just because the terrorists behind the Oklahoma Bombing were christians?

 

Further your claim that "they probly find our religion to be sick too" assumes that we are all Christian. Sorry mate. I think you'll find that plenty of us are not.

 

And are you actually justifying the attack on Iraq (based on LIES and DECEIT) with the excuse that "this war will tell people where their colours lie"?

 

Oh my.

 

 

well i still agree with the war itself, but not for the reasons that where given to us all, but purelt for the chemical attack on the kurd city not to mention the levels of torture that the kuwaitis where subject to by the iraqi armed forces.

 

I did see a book whilst i was in kuwait which very graphically shows you the victims of the iraqis, steam machines, irons, electricity, acid etc etc all used on sensitive parts of the body. There where also pictures which nearly made me phycially sick of victims that had a hot iron put on there chest and left to very painfully die, and the other that was just as bad was a picture of a kuwaiti who had his lower limbs burned off using acid.

 

The war was also justified as well as both The RAF & USAF enforcing the northern and southern no fly zones that where set up by the U.N, the iraqis where always trying to shot them down when ever they could, once they where being locked onto by the iraqi SAM's then they had no choice to actually take out theses defences.

 

Its probably theses no fly zones that have encouraged terrorism against the americans as they did have to base there aircraft in saudi arabia (near Al Khaj)...now who's family actually lives in AL Kharj? yeap you guessed it....Osman bin Laden and we all know what he demands..the withdrawal of US/UK forces from arab lands.

 

SO UTIMATELY ITS SADAMS FAULT!!

[Ulysses]

GhostShadow said:

I find that hard to beileve that any soldier would shoot an un armed man w/. no reason ( unless that soldier was a terrorist ). I am sure they had reason.

 

 

Antipodean said:

 

Ummm... it does happen. How naive are you?

 

 

lol it does not happen that often, i dont know about the american forces but the british forces it is very rare that it happens.

 

a good example of the media not fully reporting what happens was last year a british patrol was out side AL Almarah and come across two people on a bridge who where stealing the metal from it. The british troops confronted them, one of them a 12 year old kid pulls out a AK-47 and opens fire and actually shots one of the soldiers in the foot, the patrol returned fire and the kid was shot dead. Now the headlines to this was something like British Soldier shots dead 12 year old kid.

 

The press are so quick at condeming a soldier where he be american or british when he accidently shots someone by mistake but what they dont have to take in account is this soldier has to make a snap decision, if he does not he could be dead himself.

 

 

 

 

[GhostShadow]

I find that hard to beileve that any soldier would shoot an un armed man w/. no reason ( unless that soldier was a terrorist ). I am sure they had reason.

 

 

Ummm... it does happen. How naive are you?

 

And also, it seems to me that you're attacking Islam as a whole... and in truth the faith itself, doesn't actually condone terrorism. It's only a small minority of Muslims who have perverted that faith to their evil cause. Would you argue that Christianity is a terrorist faith just because the terrorists behind the Oklahoma Bombing were christians?

 

Further your claim that "they probly find our religion to be sick too" assumes that we are all Christian. Sorry mate. I think you'll find that plenty of us are not.

 

And are you actually justifying the attack on Iraq (based on LIES and DECEIT) with the excuse that "this war will tell people where their colours lie"?

 

Oh my.

 

 

ok when did i specificly say that all islams are bad? or at least say that all terrorist are islamic? ever hear of the IRA (Irish Republic Army)?

 

And i never said any thing about christans, I am not christan so i can not speak on their belifs... I never assumed that any one here was christan, that would be foolish. The first thing they teach you in debate calss it is never to assume.

 

every one went into this war under false infromation. it was not decite, that implies that we purposfuly lied. Why would we have to lie when we had every right to go in there? They attacked American Soil, they have commited acts aginst humanity. That is some resons why we are in Iraq, notice how i said IN. we are not fighting Iraq, we are IN there to kill the ppl who follow the acts of terrorism. To me that is reason enough.

 

but we are getting off topic, we are starting to debate reasons of our being there, so unless the host of this thread wants to change the topic i suggest we get back on track unless you want a mod to come and regulate this.

[GorunNova]

every one went into this war under false infromation. it was not decite, that implies that we purposfuly lied.

Using documents that the UN took two days to ID as forgeries and citing WMDs that neighboring countries, Israel's intelligence network, and the CIA knew weren't there was either deceitful or extremely stupid... neither are good options.

 

Why would we have to lie when we had every right to go in there? They attacked American Soil, they have commited acts aginst humanity. That is some resons why we are in Iraq, notice how i said IN. we are not fighting Iraq, we are IN there to kill the ppl who follow the acts of terrorism. To me that is reason enough.

Ummm... Iraq didn't attack the US. They had nothing to do with 9/11... and overthrowing the government of a country does seem like an attack against that country, however well intentioned it was. The humanitarian issues were there, but the US Gov't wasn't interested in them until every other rationale fell to pieces... if they HAD been interested in the humanitarian problems of Iraq, Bush's administration would have SAID that instead of citing forged documents and non-present WMDs.

 

but we are getting off topic' date=' we are starting to debate reasons of our being there, so unless the host of this thread wants to change the topic i suggest we get back on track unless you want a mod to come and regulate this.[/quote']

As the Iraq situation is under the umbrella of the 'War on Terror', I don't see how analyzing it can be off topic in a discussion about the state of the 'War on Terror'... ^^'

 

Edit: In saying the above, I AM happy that Saddam is gone and not killing his country's citizens anymore... but it's VERY obvious that 'humanitarian reasons' were at the bottom of the barrel where Iraq is concerned...

[philly]

Agreed, a MOD can lock/regulate/whatever to this topic if he/she feels that the war in iraq, does not fall into the category of the war on terror. Personally that can be debated nad we are debating it, so if a mod wants me to do something about the topic they can ask, but i dont think ill b changing it anytime soon.