GhostShadow Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 So when you call our government evil for being over there' date=' you are calling american citizens evil, b/c they are over there by choice. [/quote'] Nope, ever wondered why so many supported leaders as Bush and Hitler, it's called propaganda. I could convince you that you are a one legged elephant, I only need to repeat it often enough and don't allow you to watch other opinions (or not be susceptable to them). So you can't blame the masses, only the leaders that make the final decision. "How fortunate for leaders that men do not think." - Adolf Hitler wow, you are so ignorante and unwilling to even try to understand that you blame free thought on propignada. Just b/c we think diffrnetly then you you automaticly think that it has to be lies, that it MUST be propiganda. you appeare to be so intolerante to other ideals that you smash diffrent opinions into a context of lies, decite, and view it as wronge. Also, obvioulsy hitler did not win his wars, and thus it must raise a question about maybe a flaw in his ideals or thoughts. I am an elephant, i am a republican. (incase you guys dont see the joke/ irony, elephant is the sign of the republican party, just as the Jack @$$ aka donkey is the sign to democrates.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 wow' date=' you are so ignorante and unwilling to even try to understand that you blame free thought on propignada. [/quote'] Well so he took a shortcut in his logic. But he is correct. We are so innundated with propaganda nowadays, and what's not propaganda is designed to errode our intellect. There is very little availible in the way of intelligent examination of events, and when there is, we hear from officials that it's unpatriotic and foolish. We get the "official story" from the whitehouse repeated to us from all channels. So is it any wonder why when people see the aftermath of an american bomb slamming into a civillian area, they get mad at the so-called "liberals" for showing it to them instead of pointing the finger at the policy makers and implimenters? That when we see images of our troops torturing prisoners in the most humiliating ways, it's the liberal's fault for not keeping quiet about it? (It's been admitted many times, by the way, that information obtained under torture is unreliable.) That when we find out that innocent people are still being held without charges (the same people being tortured), we should just forget about it and focus on the latest distraction story? So when you call our government evil for being over there' date=' you are calling american citizens evil, b/c they are over there by choice.[/quote'] Yes, some of our troops are bad people and I don't like them for that. I've met some evil people who thrive on war, who love it. For example, I know a guy who was in the first Iraq war who's told me many times that the first time he killed, he literally came in his pants and laughed with glee. A lot of them are good guys too, and they believe in what they are doing. I don't dislike them. One of my best friends was in the current Iraq war and is now home, and I won't say he personally believed in it because he didn't, but he isn't a bad person either. Luckily he ended up being a supply manager, and though he did go into the feild, he claims he never had to kill anyone, but came close to it many times. He, by the way, did not want to go to war at all. Like many others, he voluntarily joined before 9/11 and ended up being called to go. I hung out with him on base a few times before he left, and there were many different kinds of people, none of which were brilliantly stunning heroic self-sacrificing beacons of goodness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 I get angry when liberals show that stuff, i have that right, but i am not only angry b/c that, it is the fact that they manage to not show the highlights of the war. You know the other day, American forces killed 30 insurgents and i didnt see that on the T.V. but i did see some crap about gay rights ( not saying gays are crap, i just think war is more impoertant ) and some more bush bashing. To me, that is the distraction story. You know, the other day a liberal spokes men for some god-forsaken orgianization was asked questions about his views on America, and he came right out and said that he would rather see America under a theocracy like the musliums have. I cant seem to find this since it was on teh radio, but you can take it for face value or you can choose to beileve otherwise. And i do have a life off the fourm, i would love to examine beawulf's post and his sources but i have japanese test, math test, biology test... basiclay every class i have i have a test to study for. As soon as i get more time i will look over that stuff, and thx for the sources beawulf. this will be intresting to read. And also, if you are gonna debate it is not a good idea to take a "short cut through logic". Oh, and nice job paraphrasing the one point in my statement where i forgot to mention how he appears that way, i didnt mean it as an attack. and you are right i too see where this thread is going, where we quote power hungry war lords like hitler to back up our statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 I've done some editing. You may wish to re-read as it seems you have missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 I get angry when liberals show that stuff' date=' i have that right, but i am not only angry b/c that, it is the fact that they manage to not show the highlights of the war. You know the other day, American forces killed 30 insurgents and i didnt see that on the T.V. but i did see some crap about gay rights ( not saying gays are crap, i just think war is more impoertant ) and some more bush bashing. To me, that is the distraction story. You know, the other day a liberal spokes men for some god-forsaken orgianization was asked questions about his views on America, and he came right out and said that he would rather see America under a theocracy like the musliums have.[/quote'] What you have to realize is that most of the time, when the opposition to a viewpoint is given airtime, it's a setup. Fox News is notorious for doing this. They bring in what is essentially a caricature of how they want the viewer to see the opposing side, whether that person is in on the ruse or not. This allows them to control both sides of the debate and steer the viewer towards the opinions they want them to have. A few times Fox has brought on a legitimate and informative, rational person and it has backfired on them. So they don't like to do that very often. Other networks do this too, but Fox News is THE model. Don't believe me? Check out a documentary called "Outfoxed", which you will easily be able to find a torrent for. You will see very quickly what kind of propaganda we have, who runs it, and how bad it is. And you can check all the facts for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 yea, i will not argue the fact about propaganda being out there, but i do have a problem accepting that EVERY ONE IN AMERICA IS EFFECTED. by this time in the war, ppl who dont want to be there can leave the armed forces after their tour is up and not re-enlist. So the majorty of ppl who are in the war still are ppl who have re-enlisted and believe that this war is a just cause. Worth fighting for, worth dieing for. I try to stay clear of T.V. news, i like mine off the internet or from papers, only a few select paper though like Rockey mountin news. Denver Post is ok evert once in a while, but they... are shiffty... Propaganda IS out there, i never said it wasnt. But it is not effecting every one in america. America is not a bunch of brainwashed idiots who are hungry or war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Yes, some of our troops are bad people and I don't like them for that. I've met some evil people who thrive on war, who love it. For example, I know a guy who was in the first Iraq war who's told me many times that the first time he killed, he literally came in his pants and laughed with glee. A lot of them are good guys too, and they believe in what they are doing. I don't dislike them. One of my best friends was in the current Iraq war and is now home, and I won't say he personally believed in it because he didn't, but he isn't a bad person either. Luckily he ended up being a supply manager, and though he did go into the feild, he claims he never had to kill anyone, but came close to it many times. He, by the way, did not want to go to war at all. Like many others, he voluntarily joined before 9/11 and ended up being called to go. I hung out with him on base a few times before he left, and there were many different kinds of people, none of which were brilliantly stunning heroic self-sacrificing beacons of goodness. ok, i am having trouble with this, i hate it when ppl say they joined teh military for its beniftes but didnt expect to be called for duty. This really, really gets under my skin. I think that you need to expect the worst, ppl are idiots if they think that life is gonna turn out to be "happy and fun". you dont join the armed forces unless you are willing to answer the call. now i am glad your friend answered tha call, he seems to be a good man, at least an honest man. I never question the the honesty of a man wearing his countrys uniform. But the ones who complain about it should really stfu. If they joined for the cool looking uniform, or the collage benifites and end up not wanting to go to fight they should be dragged out of America. It is their fault if they are not ready. They could have gone to colage w/ out the military. ( i feel batter that is off my chest :) haha ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkboy Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 "Ronald Reagan aka the best President this country has EVER had." That's supposed to be a joke right??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 what?? are you seriuous?? he was the best, no arguing, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 ... there's a lot of latin americans that'd kick your butt for saying that... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antipodean Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 I propose that this thread be closed off. All the evidence for all the differing persepectives has been provided. Though I must say... there are some here who ACTUALLY supported their arguements with references, links and support, as opposed to relying upon patriotic rhetoric alone to justify their positions. In any case, It appears that but for one individual here, a consensus of opinion has been arrived at. I'm not sure that a lot else can be said without repeating ourselves ad infinitum. ________________________________________________________________________ And GhostShadow - this is for you. I never intended here to belittle you or put you down as an individual. It is just that you made a number of claims that I felt the need to contest. You see, I feel it is important for the truth to be known. And you can't dismiss the truth simply as "liberal media" nonesense. Some of the truths I brought to your attention even come from former members of Bush's staff, and from the Pentagon, and from the United Nations. You can't silence the truth with jingoisms like that "liberal media" line you used. At least you shouldn't be able to. But what I would most like to say to you GhostShadow, is that I'm sorry for you. I pity you. I'm saddened that your blind faith -and it must be a blind faith that fails to acknowledge even one snippet of the evidence brought to your attention- I'm saddened that your blind faith in one particular conception of what your nation should be, and be about, is so strong that it has atrophied those parts of your heart that would in normal human function, be more concerned with compassion and sympathy. I still can't believe that those photos I showed you didn't even bring any reaction from you at besides "other people suffer too" or words to that effect. A normal human being is moved by suffering like that. Especially of innocents. When I first saw them I cried. I cried and a part of me stirred in outrage. And I thought to myself "NO. No cause in the world is worth this price". Wheras you thought "its ok cos we need to destroy tanks quicker". But its not ok. It's just not ok. And I do feel sorry that you can't see that. And I feel sorry that the terrorists can't see that either, that the lloss of the lives of innocents is too high a price to pay, for their cause, or any other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quosego Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 I propose that this thread be closed off. All the evidence for all the differing persepectives has been provided. Well no, if that would be the case no one would post here anymore... Ghostshadow does a great job defending the war on terrorists, and some of us don't agree, but something tells me he has still a lot to say :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quosego Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 So when you call our government evil for being over there' date=' you are calling american citizens evil, b/c they are over there by choice. [/quote'] Nope, ever wondered why so many supported leaders as Bush and Hitler, it's called propaganda. I could convince you that you are a one legged elephant, I only need to repeat it often enough and don't allow you to watch other opinions (or not be susceptable to them). So you can't blame the masses, only the leaders that make the final decision. "How fortunate for leaders that men do not think." - Adolf Hitler wow, you are so ignorante and unwilling to even try to understand that you blame free thought on propignada. Just b/c we think diffrnetly then you you automaticly think that it has to be lies, that it MUST be propiganda. you appeare to be so intolerante to other ideals that you smash diffrent opinions into a context of lies, decite, and view it as wronge. Also, obvioulsy hitler did not win his wars, and thus it must raise a question about maybe a flaw in his ideals or thoughts. I am an elephant, i am a republican. (incase you guys dont see the joke/ irony, elephant is the sign of the republican party, just as the Jack @$$ aka donkey is the sign to democrates.) Dude, I only have a different opinion, I'm not ignorant, I'm not trying to smash you opinion I only bring in arguments that state the opposite of your views. Well if you haven't noticed you guys barely won in WW2, hitler conquered massive parts of the world, If he didn't make a few stupid mistakes we'd probably all speak german right now... His generals and tanks were a lot better than anything in the entire world. Wtf there wasn't even something that could destroy his best tanks, (thank god he only build 1200 of those)... There is no such thing as free thought. It's all taught to you, you don't figure it all out on yourself. It's the info that reaches you and on that you base your opinion. If you control the flow of info you control the world. You think that what you're telling is the truth, I think not, so to understand why you have that opinion I must assume that other info reaches you. This is correct, you life in an diferent country and do not watch any news channels. You seem to get your info from a site called strategypage.com. This differs from the info that reaches me. I can only conclude that indeed this info has convinced you of your opinion. Some may call this one sided propaganda others may call it the truth. It's all about who beliefs what. But you should for once understand that I hold your beliefs/opinions very high, I wouldn't be discussing them if I didn't. You give me insights in your opinions and well that's interesting. And maybe if you give me enough valid argumetns and well formulated opinions I'll change my opinion on the whole thing. Untill then we'll have an discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 As long as people still have things to say, the thread should stay open. And GhostShadow is holding up pretty well, he should be commended. It's not really fair or easy when you're outnumbered. yea' date=' i will not argue the fact about propaganda being out there, but i do have a problem accepting that EVERY ONE IN AMERICA IS EFFECTED.[/quote'] I try to stay clear of T.V. news, i like mine off the internet or from papers, only a few select paper though like Rockey mountin news. Denver Post is ok evert once in a while, but they... are shiffty... Propaganda IS out there, i never said it wasnt. But it is not effecting every one in america. America is not a bunch of brainwashed idiots who are hungry or war. Yes, america isn't 100% brainwashed, not everyone is under some crazy evil spell, etc. I won't dispute that. (There are days when it seems like it, though! lol) BUT! To say that everyone is not at least effected in some way by propaganda would be false. Even if you never lay eyes on it, it touches your life through the way of contact with the rest of society who are exposed to it regularly and draw opinions from it which they share with you. Even if they don't share their opinions, their attitudes which are based on them will come across. And the more that you believe you are immune, the more it works it's influence. (Similar to the saying that the smarter you are, the easier it his to hypnotise you) Yes, you don't have to buy it. You have your own mind to make up about things. But as I've found, you have to constantly be on gaurd to accomplish this since mass media is so incredibly pervasive. There is a battle for our minds being waged every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 We live in a world where information is about the most important thing you can have/share/obtain/hide/.... 99% of the people in the develloped world rely on mass media to bring them this information, this is processed information however and as long as it's not absolutely unbelievable and completely incorrect (there has to be at least some truth in it), it can fool you into believing anything they (who-ever they (gouvernment/opponents/corporations/...) are) wish. Only the people at the very top have 'real' information and depending on the people they work with, even their information can be biased. In any case, these people are not interested in sharing this information with you. They will only tell you what they know if it serves their purpose. That's how you get multiple sides to one story! imo it is impossible to get reveal the entire objective truth by the means we are now employing. Even if you've been there you don't have the entire objective truth, since you will have seen the events from your point of view (naturally). Now, I'm not trying to support or deny anybodies statements with this, I just want to say that everybody is affected by media, nobody is unbiased and everybody has 'an agenda', even if it's as simple as convincing somebody of 'their truth'... And all media should be regarded with a 'critical' eye. Everybody has an opinion, all opinions are biased and affected by media, nobody has the 'absolute truth'. (heh, heh, seems to be my answer to everything lately... we don't know... maybe I'm growing dumber by the minute.... LOL) (btw, I'm sorry if some of the expressions I used were 'off') Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Yeah... it suck that the only way we can get good information these days is to play the archaeologist... sort through the news droppings for signs of the truth, and piece the fragments together ;p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 I propose that this thread be closed off. All the evidence for all the differing persepectives has been provided. Though I must say... there are some here who ACTUALLY supported their arguements with references, links and support, as opposed to relying upon patriotic rhetoric alone to justify their positions. In any case, It appears that but for one individual here, a consensus of opinion has been arrived at. I'm not sure that a lot else can be said without repeating ourselves ad infinitum. ________________________________________________________________________ And GhostShadow - this is for you. I never intended here to belittle you or put you down as an individual. It is just that you made a number of claims that I felt the need to contest. You see, I feel it is important for the truth to be known. And you can't dismiss the truth simply as "liberal media" nonesense. Some of the truths I brought to your attention even come from former members of Bush's staff, and from the Pentagon, and from the United Nations. You can't silence the truth with jingoisms like that "liberal media" line you used. At least you shouldn't be able to. But what I would most like to say to you GhostShadow, is that I'm sorry for you. I pity you. I'm saddened that your blind faith -and it must be a blind faith that fails to acknowledge even one snippet of the evidence brought to your attention- I'm saddened that your blind faith in one particular conception of what your nation should be, and be about, is so strong that it has atrophied those parts of your heart that would in normal human function, be more concerned with compassion and sympathy. I still can't believe that those photos I showed you didn't even bring any reaction from you at besides "other people suffer too" or words to that effect. A normal human being is moved by suffering like that. Especially of innocents. When I first saw them I cried. I cried and a part of me stirred in outrage. And I thought to myself "NO. No cause in the world is worth this price". Wheras you thought "its ok cos we need to destroy tanks quicker". But its not ok. It's just not ok. And I do feel sorry that you can't see that. And I feel sorry that the terrorists can't see that either, that the lloss of the lives of innocents is too high a price to pay, for their cause, or any other. agian, b/c i dont beileve in your ideals I become the target of pitty and sorrow. We no offence but i need not your pitty or sorrow. I DO have free thought, you know how i know this. B/c i do not even come close to agreeing w/ every thing bush says, and in fact i think that Jhon Kerry would make a better president, if it was a time of peace. but i dont know if you can understand what i am about to say; "I CHOOSE TO SUPPORT BUSH" it is not propaganda thats foggs my vision, or blind patriatism, but that little thing that all free ppl have. "FREE CHOICE" We are at war, and i rather support a leader that can get the job done. Now in the past, America has supplied weapons to ppl who are now our enimes. Cant you see, allinces dont last forever. And right now, allinces that we have w/ other ppl will not last. ITS THE SIGN THAT TIMES CHANGE. And I dont think its cool to be shooting of DU shells in Iraq, it is actualy a littel disturbing. I can not argue with the fact that NOW in HINSIGHT our intenstions to go to Iraq where a littel flimsy, but we cant change that, we are there, if we leave now all hell will break loose. and if it makes you understand me better it is that i do not watch lefty pinko liberal news, or righty jingo news, but i gather from all sources and make an eduacted choice. They teach this in debate class. And they teach you how not to be effected by lies and propaganda. That is why i know i am not effected. I think people are very stupid if they just see something on TV and make it there own point of view w/ out even thinking about it. If ppl just think that its sounds professional and is said by some guy sanding next to microphone, that it means that its true- then they are idiots. I do hope i offended any one here who does that. But i agree, ppl have stated their opinions and it seems pointless to repeat. but one last time; I am for this war This war is just Bush may not be the best guy, but he was the best choice at the time America is not effected 100% by propaganda (please dont reple saying "ok more like 99%") I am not effected by propaganda I/America have free choice. As do our soilders. "the ones the gods condem, they first make confident" This is ture, Nazi germany was a wee bit confident, and America is a wee bit confident. But this just makes me think that we have to be careful, we have to watch our selfs. we cant fall to propaganda or we will be blinded and waver in our cause and fail. America is not the only one spitting prpaganda while they speak, It appears that Europe does it too. They are just saying america is evil, and bush should be lit afire. But unless i am mistaken, they entered on own free will. Oh, and about WW2, what do you mean that we almost lost. Yes it was a bloody battel, it was violent and disturbing. But Germany had destryoed its self, they spreaded out to thin. And when the allies where at the gate of burlin, the german news was still spitting out propaganda that the Germans where winning the war. That is what caused tehir downfall. But maybe on another thread we can talk about WWII tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 As long as people still have things to say' date=' the thread should stay open. And GhostShadow is holding up pretty well, he should be commended. It's not really fair or easy when you're outnumbered. yea' date=' i will not argue the fact about propaganda being out there, but i do have a problem accepting that EVERY ONE IN AMERICA IS EFFECTED.[/quote'] I try to stay clear of T.V. news, i like mine off the internet or from papers, only a few select paper though like Rockey mountin news. Denver Post is ok evert once in a while, but they... are shiffty... Propaganda IS out there, i never said it wasnt. But it is not effecting every one in america. America is not a bunch of brainwashed idiots who are hungry or war. Yes, america isn't 100% brainwashed, not everyone is under some crazy evil spell, etc. I won't dispute that. (There are days when it seems like it, though! lol) BUT! To say that everyone is not at least effected in some way by propaganda would be false. Even if you never lay eyes on it, it touches your life through the way of contact with the rest of society who are exposed to it regularly and draw opinions from it which they share with you. Even if they don't share their opinions, their attitudes which are based on them will come across. And the more that you believe you are immune, the more it works it's influence. (Similar to the saying that the smarter you are, the easier it his to hypnotise you) Yes, you don't have to buy it. You have your own mind to make up about things. But as I've found, you have to constantly be on gaurd to accomplish this since mass media is so incredibly pervasive. There is a battle for our minds being waged every day. haha thx. Its hard being on this side of the argument, i barley have time to find new info for my argument between studying. ok, i will give you that there are some retards here who are effect by poaganda. (by here i mean America, not this site) I think we all believe we are saying the truth. that is why this is fun. If you are saying something that you dont beieve in, then i suggest you find a new path. I was talking w/ my dad the other day and he said some of the EXACT same things you guys are saying. And i consider my father to be a very wise, fair man. so plz. understand, i am not throwing your opinions out the door, i do consider it. My father even quoted Hermann Göring, lol. But agian, i mean not to offend any one here personaly. I respect your opinions just as i see you respect mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 ok now these articals are not one sided, they show the aspect of the subject. I suggest reading a few. I just put these up to mainly inform about teh subjects and not try to turn any one to my cause, lol. ;) although it would be nice. Dead prisoners and deceptive headlines.French trade weapons ok now this one says that they might actualy be trading pardons, but read it. it will make one wonder about the french. It feels good to outlaw tourture Why Alqeada has lost the war in Iraq. Special forces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 lmao ghost sorry you know i am more on your side on this and i wont actually go hunting around the net to prove our side lol dont need to when you've seen it for yourself lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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