So hows the war on "Terror" going?

[GorunNova]

Look at it this way... does torturing them do anything positive for anyone? It doesn't bring back any of the people killed in the WTC or in Afghanistan / Iraq, it tarnishes and stains the image of the US in the eyes of the world, and it doesn't net ANY useful intelligence. As far as the Nick Berg case goes... are any of the terrorists that killed him in Guantanimo? If not , then punishing them on that count is misdirected and not at all unlike blaming YOU, personally, for the torture of Iraqi prisoners in that Abu Ghraib prison because you support the US troops (which is a patently rediculous charge).

 

If individuals do a crime, punish those individuals and NOT an entire populace -_-'... such behavior is an injustice that inspires more to join the ranks of the terrorists. Charge those guys at Guantanamo with something or let 'em go! Just holding them serves no purpose.

 

Also, by circumventing the Geneva Conventions, the current US administration becomes tainted in the eyes of the world by breaking conventions that prohibit WW2 style atrocities and by encouraging other countries to break those conventions themselves... thus eliminating their usefulness and paving the way to pogroms and atrocities in the future.

[TetsuoShima]

When I hear about prisoners being “treated unfairly†and “tortured†in Guantanemo... you know what I think about? I think about Nick Berg - and how his head was slowly cut off with a dull rusty blade while he was still alive. I wonder why you feel justified in standing up for the kind of people who hide behind the very fact that they have no infrastructure - I wonder why you care only what the United States does to torture these TERRORISTS while you make no comment on the disgusting' date=' cowardly acts of the terrorists themselves? I understand that accountability is necessary - I merely wonder how you can so blatantly contradict yourself - and not realize it. You speak of this “rule†as if it were the Golden Rule - a mutual reciprocation of actions. I wonder, then, why you feel it necessary for the United States to explicitly label these prisoners “POW’s†when they, themselves, have failed to affiliate with any such infrastructure... when they themselves do not abide by the Geneva Convention (did not sign it...). [/quote']

 

Actually, I wasn't talking about torture or anything like that. That's a whole different matter. What I was talking about, was the fact that there were (and possibly are) people being held there, that had nothing serious to do with anything involving the campaign in Afghanistan. They released people from there over a year after they were 'arrested' and brought there. This, in my eyes, can only mean that they found out that those people really had nothing to do with it and thus were held there , innocent, for over a year, before being released.

 

If the people who are being held there are so obviously guilty of something, then it should be a very small effort to bring forth the proof and get it over with. I don't explicitly want them to be labeled POW's btw, but I do expect if you arrest somebody that he/she be given a fair trial. Do you need to be a POW before you can recieve that? If that is so, then I think that is a pretty lame rule. OK, so maybe your constitution doesn't think this is necessary for people who are not US citizens or whatever reason it has that they are not being given that right. They are still humans, and in my eyes and in the eyes of the world, they are still innocent untill proven guilty. Thus the US is holding, I don't know how many, innocent people prisoner in there.

 

I'm not saying that 'the other side' are all angels, but if you just start picking people up and holding them prisoner for such a long time, then the US is no better than for example, an average kidnapper.

 

If the US wants to 'police' the world and expect to be respected for it (even if it is in there own best interest and is that what drives them), then at least they should set the 'good' example. If they don't, they'll only make things worse for themselves. It is not because terrorist do not abide by the law/any law, that the governments of the world shouldn't abide by them anymore, this makes these govenments criminal as well. As a result it will be even easier for terrorist organisations to recruit new followers and further more and more extremist groups will start to oppose them and the only way to stop them from accomplishing exactly what it is the US is trying to prevent by these police actions, is to do extremely well at border patrols and intelligence operations. imo, in the end the attitude the US is currently displaying will only result in isolation from the rest of the world.

 

People in Europe used to respect the American way, but the things going on have seriously harmed that perspective. Lately things have calmed down as far as I know, in that respect, but it still was not a good thing for public relations.

 

Now, I'm not saying that Europe is perfect, over here there are also problems with lots of things. The ideal society does not exist. But the least thing to do is seperate the innocent from the guilty and the established way of doing that is by a fair trial. It is natural that you cannot expect terrorists to follow this same line of thought, but that 1. does not mean the government shouldn't, 2. you're not a terrorist untill you're proven to be one. That proof could be very simple. Say they were arrested in a known terrorist encampment. That would be evidence enough. Why, because dealing with terrorists or even not actively opposing them, is a criminal act.

 

 

Look at it this way... does torturing them do anything positive for anyone? It doesn't bring back any of the people killed in the WTC or in Afghanistan / Iraq, it tarnishes and stains the image of the US in the eyes of the world, and it doesn't net ANY useful intelligence. As far as the Nick Berg case goes... are any of the terrorists that killed him in Guantanimo? If not , then punishing them on that count is misdirected and not at all unlike blaming YOU, personally, for the torture of Iraqi prisoners in that Abu Ghraib prison because you support the US troops (which is a patently rediculous charge).

 

If individuals do a crime, punish those individuals and NOT an entire populace -_-'... such behavior is an injustice that inspires more to join the ranks of the terrorists. Charge those guys at Guantanamo with something or let 'em go! Just holding them serves no purpose.

 

Also, by circumventing the Geneva Conventions, the current US administration becomes tainted in the eyes of the world by breaking conventions that prohibit WW2 style atrocities and by encouraging other countries to break those conventions themselves... thus eliminating their usefulness and paving the way to pogroms and atrocities in the future.

 

Exactly!

 

 

If you want to be a great nation (in the full meaning of the word), than you (as in the US government) should act like one. Not only reap the benefits and ignore the downsides...

 

Now, I'm not really very into politics and world relations and such. imho a good politician is yet to be invented/born, but some things (like holding people prisoner for no good reason) are just a bit too far. And if they are being held there for a good reason, then just put them on trial and get it over with. I cannot believe that is such a hard thing to do...

 

 

 

Hehe, on another note and off topic: I actually find it somewhat believable that somewhere in the near future people who break copyright will be considered terrorists... I'm sure they allready would be if the mp##/ri## had their way...

[GhostShadow]

"Look at it this way... does torturing them do anything positive for anyone? It doesn't bring back any of the people killed in the WTC or in Afghanistan / Iraq, it tarnishes and stains the image of the US in the eyes of the world, and it doesn't net ANY useful intelligence. As far as the Nick Berg case goes... are any of the terrorists that killed him in Guantanimo? If not , then punishing them on that count is misdirected and not at all unlike blaming YOU, personally, for the torture of Iraqi prisoners in that Abu Ghraib prison because you support the US troops (which is a patently rediculous charge)."

 

"If individuals do a crime, punish those individuals and NOT an entire populace -_-'... such behavior is an injustice that inspires more to join the ranks of the terrorists. Charge those guys at Guantanamo with something or let 'em go! Just holding them serves no purpose."

 

"Also, by circumventing the Geneva Conventions, the current US administration becomes tainted in the eyes of the world by breaking conventions that prohibit WW2 style atrocities and by encouraging other countries to break those conventions themselves... thus eliminating their usefulness and paving the way to pogroms and atrocities in the future."

 

 

 

 

 

"If individuals do a crime, punish those individuals and NOT an entire populace "

 

I agree wholheartedly, but you seem to be implying that the US troops just round up a bunch of random people in Iraq/Afghanistan and put them in Guantanamo - this, you and I both know, is false, we are rounding up criminals. Being as that I am not a member of any of the US Intelligence agencies, I cannot speak to the relevance of the information attained from these prisoners - but i can say that the CIA is not stupid. We can not just assume they are holding these ppl for no reason. Just b/c we do not know of it doesnt mean that it isnt there. To think that is foolish.

[GhostShadow]

"Actually, I wasn't talking about torture or anything like that. That's a whole different matter. What I was talking about, was the fact that there were (and possibly are) people being held there, that had nothing serious to do with anything involving the campaign in Afghanistan. They released people from there over a year after they were 'arrested' and brought there. This, in my eyes, can only mean that they found out that those people really had nothing to do with it and thus were held there , innocent, for over a year, before being released.

 

If the people who are being held there are so obviously guilty of something, then it should be a very small effort to bring forth the proof and get it over with. I don't explicitly want them to be labeled POW's btw, but I do expect if you arrest somebody that he/she be given a fair trial. Do you need to be a POW before you can recieve that? If that is so, then I think that is a pretty lame rule. OK, so maybe your constitution doesn't think this is necessary for people who are not US citizens or whatever reason it has that they are not being given that right. They are still humans, and in my eyes and in the eyes of the world, they are still innocent untill proven guilty. Thus the US is holding, I don't know how many, innocent people prisoner in there. "

 

 

 

This to my ears sounds like you have all the infromation on teh subject.. god forbid that YOU dont understand why the prisoners are being held there-if the CIA isnt informing YOU on this matter, then they must have no reason at all right? You cant argue with that kind of logic!

 

"If the US wants to 'police' the world and expect to be respected for it (even if it is in there own best interest and is that what drives them), then at least they should set the 'good' example. If they don't, they'll only make things worse for themselves. It is not because terrorist do not abide by the law/any law, that the governments of the world shouldn't abide by them anymore, this makes these govenments criminal as well. As a result it will be even easier for terrorist organisations to recruit new followers and further more and more extremist groups will start to oppose them and the only way to stop them from accomplishing exactly what it is the US is trying to prevent by these police actions, is to do extremely well at border patrols and intelligence operations. imo, in the end the attitude the US is currently displaying will only result in isolation from the rest of the world."

 

I think that we all have had enough history that we can all agree that in WWII Japan had EVERY reason to declare war on the United States.

 

One of the reasons was their self defence. Self defence is not limited to national territory. This was construed by the japanese as- in order to protect them self then they had to attack first. I agree. I would do the same.

 

And I personaly would not be able to care less if we didnt have the worlds respect, because they way they are acting shows me they dont diserve my respect. I dont expect the world to respect america, they are being fed false infromation, i cant expect them to agree with us. And as NO ONE can judge a good example, how do we set one? as i keep quoteing and ppl here keep forgeting "Nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so"-Shakespeare, well let me tell you some thing- Some people dont think, they assume. That is what sets leaders from followers apart.

 

and maybe isolation would be a nice change in scenary from the the sick disturbing world that considers itself the "god" to point a fingure at America.

 

[GhostShadow]

 

Tesuo said:

"People in Europe used to respect the American way, but the things going on have seriously harmed that perspective. Lately things have calmed down as far as I know, in that respect, but it still was not a good thing for public relations.

 

Now, I'm not saying that Europe is perfect, over here there are also problems with lots of things. The ideal society does not exist. But the least thing to do is seperate the innocent from the guilty and the established way of doing that is by a fair trial. It is natural that you cannot expect terrorists to follow this same line of thought, but that 1. does not mean the government shouldn't, 2. you're not a terrorist untill you're proven to be one. That proof could be very simple. Say they were arrested in a known terrorist encampment. That would be evidence enough. Why, because dealing with terrorists or even not actively opposing them, is a criminal act."

 

 

I am sorry, i didnt know that you spoke for the entire european union as a whole, i guess i seriously underestimated your importance...

 

And i thought that i would never hear myself say this, but for once i agree w/ the French. They have it guilty till proven innocent.

 

I think that law should be applied to a person being accused of terrorism. They sould have to prove their innocence.

 

 

[GorunNova]

I don't think that the CIA are dumb... but years lounging in a prison without ANY formal charges being laid is WAY, WAY too friggin' long!

[Arktis]

I could sit here and argue with you for days about why communism is not a viable option. Yet it seems that you will not be satiated until it is instituted within this country. I understand that people who feel so strongly about two different economic institutions will never agree - there is obviously a fundamental difference that is driven by such passion, that it would be unwise, if not impossible for me to try to convince you to believe otherwise. There is however, no need for me to do so, as my argument is not based on the behavior of the “Robber Barons.†Instead, I rest my argument on the fact that generalizations such as these are in fact at fault. Not hate, not corruption - generalizations. I know that not all “Muslim†people are evil - and yet I find myself constantly defending “Americansâ€ÂÂ. As if one person could speak for the whole - a vast misconception. I’m not attempting to speak for the good of all Americans, I understand that aspects of our government are corrupt. But where you are wrong, is when you speak as if you fail to understand that the institution of government itself is corrupt - not a specific government itself.

 

(BTW, Do you drive a Subaru?)

 

What the Hell?! Communism?! Who said that? Not me. Why is it that you consistantly make these kind of ridiculous assumptions? Why is it that no matter what kind of logic or evidence is paraded in front of you, you blindly grip to a false sense of patriotism and refuse to accept it?

 

And what the hell does the car I drive have to do with anything? It's as if you think that this trivial question will somehow reveal once and for all what kind of person I am.

 

White 1991 Ford Thunderbird 2-Door v6, okay? What does that say? That I want to rule the world under my red iron fist?

 

I agree wholheartedly' date=' but you seem to be implying that the US troops just round up a bunch of random people in Iraq/Afghanistan and put them in Guantanamo - this, you and I both know, is false, we are rounding up criminals.[/quote']

 

This is what I'm talking about. You're totally off base once again. While it may be true that we aren't out rounding up random people (though even this is in doubt), we also made an agreement to pay the Northern Alliance and others for everyone they bring us. The net effect is that they go out and round up random people who they bring to us for money. This is verified by many sources, and was published in Time Magazine last year.

 

So I see that me producing information on Operation Northwoods hasn't done the job, people are still unconvinced. I've even been called out for being a commie! I'm not a communist. So I ask this: is any ammount or kind of evidence going to convince? Or am I wasting my time? I think, after seeing GhostShadow's reaction, that this hopeless, that he is hopeless. Especially since he now thinks I want communism.

[GhostShadow]

I could sit here and argue with you for days about why communism is not a viable option. Yet it seems that you will not be satiated until it is instituted within this country. I understand that people who feel so strongly about two different economic institutions will never agree - there is obviously a fundamental difference that is driven by such passion, that it would be unwise, if not impossible for me to try to convince you to believe otherwise. There is however, no need for me to do so, as my argument is not based on the behavior of the “Robber Barons.†Instead, I rest my argument on the fact that generalizations such as these are in fact at fault. Not hate, not corruption - generalizations. I know that not all “Muslim†people are evil - and yet I find myself constantly defending “Americansâ€ÂÂ. As if one person could speak for the whole - a vast misconception. I’m not attempting to speak for the good of all Americans, I understand that aspects of our government are corrupt. But where you are wrong, is when you speak as if you fail to understand that the institution of government itself is corrupt - not a specific government itself.

 

(BTW, Do you drive a Subaru?)

 

What the Hell?! Communism?! Who said that? Not me. Why is it that you consistantly make these kind of ridiculous assumptions? Why is it that no matter what kind of logic or evidence is paraded in front of you, you blindly grip to a false sense of patriotism and refuse to accept it?

 

And what the hell does the car I drive have to do with anything? It's as if you think that this trivial question will somehow reveal once and for all what kind of person I am.

 

White 1991 Ford Thunderbird 2-Door v6, okay? What does that say? That I want to rule the world under my red iron fist?

 

I agree wholheartedly' date=' but you seem to be implying that the US troops just round up a bunch of random people in Iraq/Afghanistan and put them in Guantanamo - this, you and I both know, is false, we are rounding up criminals.[/quote']

 

This is what I'm talking about. You're totally off base once again. While it may be true that we aren't out rounding up random people (though even this is in doubt), we also made an agreement to pay the Northern Alliance and others for everyone they bring us. The net effect is that they go out and round up random people who they bring to us for money. This is verified by many sources, and was published in Time Magazine last year.

 

So I see that me producing information on Operation Northwoods hasn't done the job, people are still unconvinced. I've even been called out for being a commie! I'm not a communist. So I ask this: is any ammount or kind of evidence going to convince? Or am I wasting my time? I think, after seeing GhostShadow's reaction, that this hopeless, that he is hopeless. Especially since he now thinks I want communism.

 

dude, dont be vain. i wasnt talking about you. And i was wondering what kind of car you drive b/c a LOT of liberals here drive a subaru outback ( and drive really slow ). My family drives Chevys, and SUVs, lmao. i guess it is true (never mind that)...

 

agian- dont be vain i wasnt talking about you, and i have taken alot of your guys post into consideration, its just that for a while i was getting soft. Despite our differing opinions i do respect most the serious posters in here, and their posts.

 

But as i have said before "I understand that people who feel so strongly about two different economic institutions will never agree - there is obviously a fundamental difference that is driven by such passion, that it would be unwise, if not impossible for me to try to convince you to believe otherwise."

 

And i have had a bad day so i got a littel angry, sorry 'bout that.

 

EDIT:And why is it when ever i throw logic in your face you spit on it and call it propaganda??

 

I am freaking sick of this, its almost like i am not even being heard. PPL are here just throwing shjt about America around but when it comes time to clean up, they can prove 'nothing. It gets annoying.

 

PPL bring up prison tourture in cuba, but some how fail to mention the other side to that story...

 

I think what really got ot me was that stupid ass pome thing writen by some retard. "drr, AmRika is stpids"..... -_-"

 

I am gonna chill out, c yeas laterz

[Arktis]

EDIT:And why is it when ever i throw logic in your face you spit on it and call it propaganda??

 

I am freaking sick of this, its almost like i am not even being heard. PPL are here just throwing shjt about America around but when it comes time to clean up, they can prove 'nothing. It gets annoying.

 

PPL bring up prison tourture in cuba, but some how fail to mention the other side to that story...

 

Your only source of information is strategypage, a militaristic website, that's why. And I'm not spitting on anything, I'm refuting with solid arguments. Hell, I'm even giving you links when I think it's needed, and they don't all go to the same source; all of them go to independant sources. And I'm not the only one either.

 

And what's "the other side of the story" people failed to mention?

 

I think what really got ot me was that stupid ass pome thing writen by some retard. "drr' date=' AmRika is stpids"..... -_-"[/quote']

That got me mad, too. But what got me even more was your response, which prompted me to post links about operation northwoods. Have you even looked at those yet, by the way?

[Arktis]

While I suspect Arktis that I'm closer to you than GhostShadow on a lot of these issues... I have to say, accusing the US government of organising the September 11 attacks themselves, well that's a pretty serious allegation to make - and one which I think many Americans might find offensive.

 

Just because we have evidence of the Northwoods proposals, doesn't mean 9/11 was just as dodgy.

 

I really do need to call you on this, if you don't mind - so I'd really appreciate it if you could share any support you have for this claim.

 

Personally, I believe that there exists evidence that various US Security services were aware of a probable threat of terrorist attack at that time. So I'm more inclined to to think that if indeed there was a conspiracy, that it's more likely that it would have been the case that such consprirators would simply have let the attacks take place - . In any case, I find the proposition highly conjectural and so yeah, that's why I need to see more before I'm swayed.

 

Okay, you'll get what you're asking for. First, allow me a bit of time to organize. There is a lot to cover.

[philly]

"So I ask this: is any ammount or kind of evidence going to convince? Or am I wasting my time? I think, after seeing GhostShadow's reaction, that this hopeless, that he is hopeless. Especially since he now thinks I want communism."

 

I dont think that any amount of information/evidence will ever pursuade anyone willing to believe in their government. Same applies to believing in god. Once they get something stuck in their head you literally have to drill it out with a 1/2" drill bit, and sometimes that wont even work...

 

BTW Communism works in THEORY, it just hasnt been put into practice right...

 

[GhostShadow]

GhostShadow... you've finally forced my hand. Today, you will learn just how wrong you are.

 

Have you been paying attention at all? You've got to stop spewing this crap out. If you don't want to sit through the following summary, skip ahead to the links. Go ahead, the information contained there is vitally important for you to read.

 

The common american doesn't want war. We have to be SOLD on the idea of war, it has to be justified. This is where propaganda comes in, but it is not enough. We need a Pearl Harbor type event for us to want to go to war and give up our freedoms.

 

9/11 - Who did it benefit? Not us. Not the terrorists either! It benefited industry. Industry. INDUSTRY. That's the bottom line. For the love of money is the root of all evil.

 

Now what is happening? The american economy is being looted from the inside, the afghani and iraqi economys have been handed to american interests and their rule is being enforced by our military. That is what makes america bad to the rest of the world. Not it's citizens, but the powerful greedy bastards that have literally hijacked our country.

 

We have been fooled so badly! You're fighting the wrong fight, GhostShadow. The enemy is not them, it's our own leaders and captains of industry. Terrorists didn't even carry out 9/11. If you doubt that, oh BOY is there a mountain of evidence. It's not just some theory.

 

Stuff like this has been planned by our government before, and even declassified. Here are four separate sources I came up with in under 30 seconds:

 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/

www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html

www.public-action.com/911/northwds.html

 

And that's just for starters. You want more, I've got more. See for yourself, GhostShadow. Wake up.

 

gahaa, Americas Economy has not been hijacked... if anything, America has Hijacked Chinas Economy.

 

Right now China has a growing economy that could rival Ameica in 50 years. They have over 150 million cars on the road. They are gonna need gas... Now i think we all have enough education to know that sudamn and china where doing some "buniess" together.... if you know what i mean.

 

china needed oil solution ----> Sudman

sudman wanted weapons (any thing he could get) solution--->China.....

 

This is only part of the whole story. And to me, keeping China below America is a top priorty. I dont know about you but i am perfectly fine w. the government that we have, I rather not have chinas failing comunist governemnt...

 

It may sound Evil, but that is on the eye of the beholder. so dont give me crap about northwood ( which i still need to finish researching ), all i care about is the safty of America.

 

So i guess agian, we are not gonna see this eye to eye, you are trying to convince me to feel sorry or pitty for some ppl on the other side of the world, trying to protray our governemnt at the most evil thing since the Nazi party...

 

And we are not, America hepls other countries, gives money, leads the way in techonoly, polices the globe b/c the world is to friggin immature to care for its slef. ( it has shown this through actions).

 

So this is no longer a debate about the war on terror, in the last 20 or so post, i have been defending America, while half the ppl in here are just spitting empty words About the Evil America and Emporer Bush..... I am out. You guys go ahead and post, but i am getting physicaly ill from reading this crap.

 

And i am probly gonna get yelled at for the stuff i post any way... c yea aroundz

[philly]

"And we are not, America hepls other countries, gives money, leads the way in techonoly, polices the globe b/c the world is to friggin immature to care for its slef. ( it has shown this through actions)"

 

Im slowly losin patience while reading thru these past posts, but the above quote in bold really GRINDS MY GEARS. America makes policies for the rest of the world to live by because they(the government) want the world to bow down to their feet. To me it seems that America sticks it's nose' into other ppl/countries business far too often then i would like. From my observation of history America has wanted to police the world, and unfortunatly in some cases has succeded in this task. Mark me as a commie/nazi/whatever the f*** as you want but im sick of hearing about it. America should stop meddeling in others affairs and worry about their own EFFIN problems. Something that you know might actually benefit their citizens.....

[Arktis]

I dont think that any amount of information/evidence will ever pursuade anyone willing to believe in their government. Same applies to believing in god. Once they get something stuck in their head you literally have to drill it out with a 1/2" drill bit' date=' and sometimes that wont even work...[/quote']

 

So this is no longer a debate about the war on terror' date=' in the last 20 or so post, i have been defending America, while half the ppl in here are just spitting empty words About the Evil America and Emporer Bush..... I am out. You guys go ahead and post, but i am getting physicaly ill from reading this crap. [/quote']

 

So I was right... this is a lost cause. No matter what I can produce, it won't matter. If God Himself came down from heavan and spoke to you saying "I am God. You are wrong.", you'd probably say it was the devil trying to trick you.

[azuro]

some people are just too obsessed wt this war thing. sadly, i really dont think its going anywhere but down. if we are looking for the people to blame, its the government. i honestly dont know why people support bush so much. he does nothing but promote war. and if some sees that as a good thing, there will never be peace on god's green earth. america is a great country. but dont u think uncleSAMs image simply goes bad when the attack on iraq was initiated? the respond to 9/11 was understandable but not the others. i pity the religion that calls it self PEACE, ISLAM... now everbody think muslims are terrorist.

 

i think this thread has sparked enough irritation and hatred. i seriously believe it should stop. lets post someplace esle where there is a lot of fun and happiness... ;)

 

azuro out!

[GorunNova]

All Rome was concerned with was it's own safety... and to ensure it, it conquered a huge chunk of Eurasia. "Never again will Rome be burned!" was the cry... and in the meanwhile, it went from a republic to an empire under one emperor.

 

Rome was paranoid about having kings... yet they ended up having an emperor.

 

... and people don't say history is important. ;p

[TetsuoShima]

I agree wholheartedly' date=' but you seem to be implying that the US troops just round up a bunch of random people in Iraq/Afghanistan and put them in Guantanamo - this, you and I both know, is false, we are rounding up criminals.[/quote']

 

Well, I somewhat would like to believe that these people were arrested for some important reason, I (an neither does any other ordinary citizen) do NOT know! That is the whole point!

 

Being as that I am not a member of any of the US Intelligence agencies' date=' I cannot speak to the relevance of the information attained from these prisoners - but i can say that the CIA is not stupid. We can not just assume they are holding these ppl for no reason. Just b/c we do not know of it doesnt mean that it isnt there. To think that is foolish.[/quote']

 

I could come up with a good reason to hold them without trial: to not look stupid and foolish for having arrested a bunch of nowbodies. That is currently just as likely as any other reason.

 

This to my ears sounds like you have all the infromation on teh subject.. god forbid that YOU dont understand why the prisoners are being held there-if the CIA isnt informing YOU on this matter' date=' then they must have no reason at all right? You cant argue with that kind of logic![/quote']

 

Ah, so because it is a generally accepted idea (at least in my part of the world) that you are innocent until proven guilty and that I support this idea. It means that if I don't have the information then there is no information at all, right? Talk about logic...

 

I'm not asking for anybody to inform me, I'm asking for them to inform everybody!

 

And I personaly would not be able to care less if we didnt have the worlds respect' date=' because they way they are acting shows me they dont diserve my respect. I dont expect the world to respect america, they are being fed false infromation, i cant expect them to agree with us.[/quote']

 

Somehow I knew in advance that you were going to say this... :)

 

And as NO ONE can judge a good example' date=' how do we set one? as i keep quoteing and ppl here keep forgeting "Nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so"-Shakespeare[/quote']

 

Ah, and because Shakespear says it's so, it is so, right? Good and bad are ideas, that's right. But there IS a general idea about what is good and what is bad. 1. In peoples minds (and on the simple important matters, most people will agree about what is good and what is bad) 2. It's called the law!

 

If I kill somebody, just for fun, that is not at all bad, but if you say it is, that makes it so??? What is that, so let's all condone murder/rape/.... because that is not bad, if somebody says it is good, then it is... Because Shakespear says so! :stare:

 

and maybe isolation would be a nice change in scenary from the the sick disturbing world that considers itself the "god" to point a fingure at America.

 

People are pointing a finger at the US government, if they make a wrong decision they should be able to admit it or at least admit they real reasons they are doing stuff. If you stand by and do nothing against it and even support it, you're not much better than the German populace during the second world war, they said (translated): "We didn't know!" Talking about the concentration camps, of course they knew (most of them anyway, some were to naive, but that arguement is no longer applicable today, people aren't 1/10th as naive now as they were then)! They just didn't care! You cannot blindly follow a leader just because he/she is a leader. Even leaders need to be questioned. I know this is not how things work in the military and they shouldn't, you can't efficiently operate a military like that. But in politics, you'd better do this, or else you're gonna get screwed. (in this paragraph: you as in a general person, not aimed at anyone)

 

I'm not comparing anything to a concentration camp here btw, it's just an example and should be regarded only as such.

 

I am sorry' date=' i didnt know that you spoke for the entire european union as a whole, i guess i seriously underestimated your importance...[/quote']

 

Haha, funny... Of course I'm not talking for every single person in the EU. But I can talk about the general feelings people have/had over here (as I said, things have calmed down), As I'm sure you could talk about the general feelings people have in your state.

 

I am freaking sick of this' date=' its almost like i am not even being heard. PPL are here just throwing shjt about America around but when it comes time to clean up, they can prove 'nothing. It gets annoying.[/quote']

 

1. I can argue for myself here: I can prove what I 'accused' the US of in the first place: A. The prisoners ARE being held there! B. They haven't stood trial!

You can't deny this, so my point is proven.

 

2. Second reasoning: Do we need proof to accuse? To quote yourself:

And i thought that i would never hear myself say this' date=' but for once i agree w/ the French. They have it guilty till proven innocent.[/quote']

 

So, the US is guilty until proven innocent: your own rule!

And don't say, only for terrorists, it's easy, just add terrorism to the charge, no need to prove the accusation, since the accused needs to prove that he/she didn't do it....

 

That's not justice!

 

If people were to judge by this, the US situation in regards to puplic relations would be far worse, but people don't do this. People just ask questions and expect answers, if they don't recieve answers, they become suspicious. That's human nature.

 

PPL bring up prison tourture in cuba' date=' but some how fail to mention the other side to that story...[/quote']

 

Actually, you brought that up! I just said that they were there without a formal trial. :)

 

 

I think what really got ot me was that stupid ass pome thing writen by some retard. "drr' date=' AmRika is stpids".....[/quote']

 

I can tell you this: I don't think the US is stupid in general, I do think that the US government should be more open about their true intentions instead of trying to hide them and before Bush came to power I did have a higher opinion of the US (he did some pretty wacky foreign politics), I have to admit, but I don't at all think the US is stupid. For one thing, I loooove AMD! :D

[GhostShadow]

Tesuo:

"Ah, and because Shakespear says it's so, it is so, right? Good and bad are ideas, that's right. But there IS a general idea about what is good and what is bad. 1. In peoples minds (and on the simple important matters, most people will agree about what is good and what is bad) 2. It's called the law!"

 

No not just b/c he said it, it automaticaly comes right. But can you dipute that logic? if you think about it, there is actualy meanings behind thoese words. And i could say your exact same crap about other quotes in here, but i choose not to b/c i will be respectful and take a quote for face value and choose to think that thoes ppl do not mean it as a word of GOD.

 

"Actually, you brought that up! I just said that they were there without a formal trial. :)"

 

Actually sir, you brought up the gunatameno, and it is very important to understand why they are being held there for so long. They are bing held there b/c they are terrorist. I can prove teh not all ppl in US prison camps are innocent, I am holding a TIME magizine in my hand from June 20 2005. "Exclusive DETANIEE 063 INSIDE THE WIRE AT GITMO" There are a few articals in here about teh methods of interrorgation, BUT NO WHERE DOES IT SAY TOURTURE. Now these methods could esily be mistaken for bad treatment but i will let you decide. ok, this is my personal favriote. 11 December 2002- "Detaniee was reminded that no one loved, cared, or remembered him. He was reminded that he was less than human and that animals had more freedom and love than he does. He was taken out side to see a family of banana rats. The banana rats where moving around freely playing, eating, showing concern for one another. Detaniee was compaired to the Family of banana rats and reinforced that they had more love, freedom, and concern than he had. Detaniee began to cry during this compairson." (are you all happy now that i have other soucres. Hell, i just gave you a source that wasnt on the internet, unlike the majority of you all.)

 

Beacuse we can't physicaly beat the living crap out of this scum, we have to break them emotionaly so their walls guarding their secrets break down. Oh and i think I forgot to tell you this, Detaniee was the 20th hijacker that was supposed to help on 9-11... so agian this crap about innocent ppl being held... its just crap.

 

And no one is being physicaly abused. pg28. "The detaniees medical condition is freequently checked by medical corpsmen as often as three times a day."

 

I have plety more quotes but i dont think i need to post them b/c they will either not be read or just scoffed at. And I DO have more sources right behind me. I have magazeins full of stuff.

 

"If I kill somebody, just for fun, that is not at all bad, but if you say it is, that makes it so??? What is that, so let's all condone murder/rape/.... because that is not bad, if somebody says it is good, then it is... Because Shakespear says so :sare:"

 

you totaly took that out of context. I am refering to the war and you are showing a concealed passion to kill randomly. This is what i was say about ppl not hearing what i say.

 

"So, the US is guilty until proven innocent: your own rule!

And don't say, only for terrorists, it's easy, just add terrorism to the charge, no need to prove the accusation, since the accused needs to prove that he/she didn't do it...."

 

Agian you took this out of context, you seem good at that. But if you look at what i said i typed " I think that law should be applied to a person being accused of terrorism. They sould have to prove their innocence. " i never said it was supirior to the idea of inoccens over guilty.... so when you say that i am accuseing of US of being guilty you are just saying "empty words".... *puke*

I choose to think that b/c this is getting out of hand, if ppl are accused of terroism they should have to be able to prove they are not. It should be a simple task to prove ones innocens.

 

[Arktis]

In response to Antipodean's request for me to elaborate on my accusation of the United States Governemnt being the responsible party for the 9/11 attacks, I submit the following for examination. Do check the facts for yourself, people. I've got several links for you. Don't just take me on my word. And of course, I can't cover everything. Just what I can remember.

 

And don't bother dismissing me until you've examined the availible evidence, please. Then I'll be VERY willing to listen to your opinions.

 

I suppose the first thing for me to cover would be the controlled demolition of the world trade center.

 

1.) The jet fuel of the planes didn't burn hot enough to melt the steel columns, nor was the impact sufficient to destabilize the structures.

 

2.) The way that the buildings collapsed right down to the seismographic signiature was a textbook controlled demolition.

 

3.) The concrete from the buildings was pulverised into dust/powder, something impossible unless there were high tech explosives involved.

 

4.) Larry Silverstein was quoted during an interview as saying that an order was given to "pull it", refering to building 7. Explosives for a controlled demolition take a long time to set up in advance, and you're going to set them up while the building is on fire? Busted.

 

5.) In the end, a company called Controlled Demolition, Inc. was payed to remove the debris which they later solde overseas, while people were forbidden to take photographs of it so that no real investigation could be conducted.

 

Evidence:

www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2492

www.checktheevidence.com/911/Collapse%20of%20Towers.swf <--- Long flash presentation. It's buggy; do NOTHING but click forward and you'll be fine. Mess around and you'll have to start over.

www.serendipity.li/wot/bollyn2.htm

www.911-strike.com/demolition_explosive.htm

 

If you don't like reading a whole lot, then I suggest the flash presentation. Here is a miror:

homepage.ntlworld.com/ad.johnson/Collapse%20of%20Towers.swf

 

Okay boys and girls, next time, I'll cover the Pentagon. If people want me to continue.

 

Oh, I left out the bit about the planes themselves, There's some nice photographic evidence on that. If people are interested.

[TetsuoShima]

Actually sir' date=' you brought up the gunatameno, and it is very important to understand why they are being held there for so long. They are bing held there b/c they are terrorist. I can prove teh not all ppl in US prison camps are innocent.[/quote']

 

That is not the point, the point is that you should prove with reasonable certainty (as in court) that there are NO innocent people in there. If you can, then I will immediately withdraw my 'accusation' against the US government that they hold people there without being given a fair trial. Because if you can, than that is about the same as a fair trial on a per person basis.

 

 

Agian you took this out of context, you seem good at that. But if you look at what i said i typed " I think that law should be applied to a person being accused of terrorism. They sould have to prove their innocence. " i never said it was supirior to the idea of inoccens over guilty.... so when you say that i am accuseing of US of being guilty you are just saying "empty words".... *puke*

I choose to think that b/c this is getting out of hand, if ppl are accused of terroism they should have to be able to prove they are not. It should be a simple task to prove ones innocens.

 

I'm sorry, but I really don't see the difference...

If you (or somebody else) could explain the difference to me, I'd like that.

btw. it isn't allways a easy obvious thing to do: prove your innocence!

 

 

 

One more thing, could please continue the discussion on a less offensive note, throwing in (as Spock would say) colourfull metaphors like "crap" and "*puke*" is not what I consider acceptable in a serious discussion...

Thanks.