the new improved voyager ending.......

[Guest c4evap]

i think it's just the Mirror Universe Kira was certainly one with the ladies ( i can't actually understand why he's complaining.....) anyway - yeah sorry just got furious with Furious!

 

:)

 

Understandable....for sure.

 

c4 B)

[tcmullet]

The lack of something related to the Caretaker was really frustrating... Too bad that the most important species from Voyager was completely forgotten in the final episode.

Forgotten? Why should it be remembered? The Caretaker was reclusive, very elusive. So it makes sense it would not have had anything to do with the final ep. To bring it back in JUST to have it there because it was the cause of their Delta-stranding in the beginning, would indeed be artificial.

 

Yes, Voyager is long over, so lets get on with life, both in and out of scifi. It was a great show (along w/most of Trek) notwithstanding all the dorky criticisms I've seen scattered about this board. (Will add more seperately.)

[tcmullet]

(off subject) id like to see the next trek series based entirely in the mirror universe....but that's just my opinion.....

Don't think it would work. It made a nice diversion in each series it happened. But to do it every week would 1. be too "dark" for people to like it, and 2. further hurt the believability of the series. The mirror concept (at least the idea that the *same* individuals have their counterparts) is really inplausible at least beyond a few years. That is, once a major event happens to one person (like Archer being killed) that *affects* ongoing history, including all relationships with all people, which includes future marriages, children born, etc. Do you really think that if evil-Archer had been killed, that 2 centuries later Kirk, McCoy et cetera would have been born with their names, looks, etc. *intact*?? Any serious fan of time-travel scifi would discount that as unbelievable. I remember a scifi short story (don't remember if it was Heinlein, Asimov, or Clarke) in which they were using time travel to sell hunting trips to adventurers wanting to shoot and kill dinosaurs for sport. The device would go back in 30 million year jumps. The proprietors would go back and *with no interference* and look for dinos dying of natural causes. These and only these would be "authorized" for killing. (Reminds me of the movie Millenium.) And even then, you were required to stay on a path that hovered over the ancient ground so as not to disturb the timeline by "affecting" wildlife. A couple of intruders somehow stole their way into the past. One fellow jumped off the hovering path and trudged for a few minutes thru the grass. Unknown to him he had stepped on and killed a butterfly. When he and buddy got back to "future", everything was the same except all the english spoken was some sort of distorted piglatin. Kill one insect and 60 million years later, you never know how things will be different.

 

I don't believe in evolution or in a long age of the earth anymore, but that story illustrates the point. Our actions have consequences, so this whole mirror thing is really implausible *with identical characters* for any length of time beyond the initial creation of the mirror universe.

 

I'm reminded of the time Voyager was split in two. Would have been neat to have seen how the two crews lives changed over time. Heck we see that already... Look at the two Will Rikers. Identical at split, but different actions, events, environments result in *diverging* paths. Was good to see the two Rikers diverting accordingly.

 

Believability was the key to TOS, and the Mirror concept as implemented just doesn't measure up. So I'm glad it was kept to a minimum. (Although I *LOVED* the 2-parter in Enterprise.)

 

Werecow, I'm not attacking you, just expressing my opinions too. Am new here thanks to CBS news report of Star Wars Revelations (back in May; I'm way behind), which led me to bittorrents which led me to Niteshw.

 

[MrDad]

(off subject) id like to see the next trek series based entirely in the mirror universe....but that's just my opinion.....

Don't think it would work. It made a nice diversion in each series it happened. But to do it every week would 1. be too "dark" for people to like it, and 2. further hurt the believability of the series. The mirror concept (at least the idea that the *same* individuals have their counterparts) is really inplausible at least beyond a few years. That is, once a major event happens to one person (like Archer being killed) that *affects* ongoing history, including all relationships with all people, which includes future marriages, children born, etc. Do you really think that if evil-Archer had been killed, that 2 centuries later Kirk, McCoy et cetera would have been born with their names, looks, etc. *intact*?? Any serious fan of time-travel scifi would discount that as unbelievable. I remember a scifi short story (don't remember if it was Heinlein, Asimov, or Clarke) in which they were using time travel to sell hunting trips to adventurers wanting to shoot and kill dinosaurs for sport. The device would go back in 30 million year jumps. The proprietors would go back and *with no interference* and look for dinos dying of natural causes. These and only these would be "authorized" for killing. (Reminds me of the movie Millenium.) And even then, you were required to stay on a path that hovered over the ancient ground so as not to disturb the timeline by "affecting" wildlife. A couple of intruders somehow stole their way into the past. One fellow jumped off the hovering path and trudged for a few minutes thru the grass. Unknown to him he had stepped on and killed a butterfly. When he and buddy got back to "future", everything was the same except all the english spoken was some sort of distorted piglatin. Kill one insect and 60 million years later, you never know how things will be different.

 

I don't believe in evolution or in a long age of the earth anymore, but that story illustrates the point. Our actions have consequences, so this whole mirror thing is really implausible *with identical characters* for any length of time beyond the initial creation of the mirror universe.

 

I'm reminded of the time Voyager was split in two. Would have been neat to have seen how the two crews lives changed over time. Heck we see that already... Look at the two Will Rikers. Identical at split, but different actions, events, environments result in *diverging* paths. Was good to see the two Rikers diverting accordingly.

 

Believability was the key to TOS, and the Mirror concept as implemented just doesn't measure up. So I'm glad it was kept to a minimum. (Although I *LOVED* the 2-parter in Enterprise.)

 

Werecow, I'm not attacking you, just expressing my opinions too. Am new here thanks to CBS news report of Star Wars Revelations (back in May; I'm way behind), which led me to bittorrents which led me to Niteshw.

 

The Ray Bradbury story 'A Sound of Thunder' was adapted (very loosely) to a movie by the same name.

 

The changes in the story accumulated over tens of millions of years. 500 or 1000 years after the butterfly's death, there would have been no noticeable large scale change. After 200 years any divergence would not have been significant.

[tcmullet]

Much too much harping on the faults (perceived or otherwise) of the various Trek incarnations. Enjoy them for what they were and bitch about the price of gas instead!

Yes, yes. Gas prices, Iraqi insurgents, and Osama are all more worthy of gripes. All s.t. was great, even tho a very few eps in each series were terribly evil in their message. But you won't find me chopping those eps out of my collections.

 

Overall, s.t. has been great. Since 1987 I eagerly watched each new ep. of TNG, DS9, Voy, Ent. as it came out. I never came away feeling like I would stop watching *EVERY* episode. It kinda galls me that someone would claim to be a s.t. fan but stop watching a series after 3 years. NO. It's Star Trek, so regardless of gripes, you watch every new episode faithfully when it aires (or within a short time), and you don't miss a single episode while the series is still on! Anything less and you're just a casual observer, not a real s.t. fan.

 

I was kinda flabbergasted when I read 2 years later that the season two ratings of Ent. were down. Season 2 had a LOT of good stories and character developments. Same throughout all of Voyager and DS9.

 

My big big gripe about all of S.T. is there's so damn much of it! Now I'm torrent-sharing these old files (better than my tapes? not sure). But tapes, or .avis, when am I going to find time to watch all these hours and hours of Star Trek?? And what about the rest of movies etc. in 20th century lore? I'm really so glad s.t. is giving it a rest. I still have 2 seasons of Ent captured in high-bitrate on HD waiting to be re-encoded for my collection. Have no time for more s.t.; yet I punish myself by downloading episodes and engaging in discussion here. Yes it's enjoyable, but a challenge to weigh priorities.

 

Thank you all for patience with my rantings. Been stimulating to read all your posts. And sorry for being so o.t. (but am responding to other's o.t. remarks)

 

[tcmullet]

I'd much have them stop for now...

Yes, as I've said, there's already too much s.t. to go back and occasionally watch.

 

...and re-vamp like Next GEN in 100 years further.

New styling... but more trekking... less anamolies or ship related problems and some crew's metal health status... and yes... MORE fights. Now before you go... hey ST isn't about fights... I disagree. The old ST... SHOWED the fights whenever they happened n to the best of their ability.

Yes, if there's a fight, let's show it, not hide it all behind bridge views. But an attitude like yours is what turns a series that should have a broadbased audience into the narrow shootemup, blowemup, action-all-the-time "guy stuff". Life is a heck of a lot more that violence and battles. I know folks that hated TOS but loved TNG because it was more "real"; the crew were *people*, not just impersonal fighting soldiers (by comparison that is). Yes, most of those I'm speaking of were women, but HEY, women are half the population; they tame-out the barbarisms that we single men have (if we marry them, that is). Character development and walking thru difficult life struggles (whether over adherence to the prime directive, whether a Klingon and human should marry, or how Troi should feel about two Rikers) are just as important as blowing up Borg ships.

The BEST ST movies are Wrath of Khan n 1st Contact... both of which were all out action movies.

Yeah, but they had plenty of human interaction as well; much more than mere "action" stuff.

 

I like what Lucas said long ago about his Star Wars and movies in general. Gotta have story; if no story then the spfx are hollow and pointless. And that's where your focus on "action and battles" will lead you.

[tcmullet]

I agree with Arktaris that ST needs more peace n exploration n friendship but I'd stay with my original point that they also need action. TFMF gave the best example about SG-1... n SGA.

And if u see... ST doesn't HAVE more violence. It barely has any actions [Other than DS-9 ofcourse]. They try to make it LOOK like an action series... but in all honesty, its more about spacial anamolies... temporal distortions and engine trouble than EXPLORATION OR FIGHTS.

Lets use Species 8472 arc as an example... they came into BORG space... n found about species 8472. All out war... thn later... they tried saving that lone species 8472... then they found their space station and finally they sat down and talked... and became friends.

Seee... that was PRIME ST.

Yes. Becoming friends w/8472 was great, and good ST. But I don't think every instance of becoming friends has to be preceded by near-destruction war.

[tcmullet]

It is weird that Voyager didn't end where it started..

 

Picard & Q

 

Sisco & the prophets

 

.. if you follow my drift....

 

The other modern trek series usually came full circle...

 

So therefore,

Voyager Should have ended with the Caretaker.

Sorry to belabor a point. Endgame was great as is; no the Caretaker was a dead issue. Was good that they always had as one of their goals to meet a caretaker for help getting home, and good that they met the wife. But some things in life just don't work out, so was GOOD that they never found caretaker again, and GOOD that Janeway ingeniously found better way to get home FAST (and ingenious of the writers). And GREAT that the Borg is victoriously CRUSHED! Had been waiting since '87 for THAT!

 

Pickard and Q? Q was a mistake from start to finish. Not very believable. Was disappointed that last episode had ANY thing to do with Q.

 

Sisko and the wormhole aliens? Okay, it makes sense. But am frustrated that closure is denied by leaving him in limbo. When do we get to see a DS9 movie where he gets OUT??!? (Before Avery Brooks gets too old or dies.)

 

Closure is good, but coming "full circle" isn't always best.

 

I would like to see ST continue where Voyager left off (or after ST10 left off); continuing Federation exploration, interacting w/Dominion, Klingons, Romulans, etc. but w/the 30 year advanced technology that Janeway brought back. Yes, that and the "portable emitter" screw up time travel issues, but what the heck. (To quote Doc Brown.) And yes, all Maqui should be formally acquitted.

[tcmullet]

Together: MIRROR UNIVERSE EPISODE!

 

No danger of any plot development in these episodes - only lesbianism.

 

The Emperor's New Cloak is just so blatant for that fanservice.

 

I even remember seeing MORE mirror universe books when I was in the book shop. I think they had pretty much every single female character going around, lezzing up.

Sexual perversion is probably a good thing to have in the Mirror univ. Another way of showing how evil it is.

 

Btw, I still remember the Mirror of the new Dax. She was much better looking than herself in our univ. Amazing what different hair/makeup can do.

[tcmullet]

For those that said the ending of Voyager was weak...........were right.

 

I wouldnt of changed the story line I would of made one more episode that explored how the crews lives had changed when they arrived back on Earth. It needed one more episode not alterations to the story.

 

The big problem with Voyager is that now all the Federation have ownership to all the best Borg technology. Who else is there in the universe apart from Q and gang who can rival that power?

 

In a way this how the producers shot themselves in the foot for a new future based series.

 

My own guess would be to create an internal struggle with in the Federation a lot like the Undiscovered Country...........I`m hard pushed to think of anything else?

Appreciate your comments, Chiggy. Yes, I often feel that more aftermath should be shown in movies in general. I hate it when movies end right at the climax but you never get to see what happened to people afterward as a result of the victory. But I doubt it could be enough for a whole Voyager episode. I kinda thought the plot was a bit too fast, so between that and your idea, they could have ended with a 3-parter.

 

But I'm glad Borg is defeated, I wish the Q would never have existed in the series, and yes internal struggles both within and outside the federation is what life is all about. Don't always have to have an all emcompassing evil threat "that will destroy the universe as we know it". Have close to enough of that in real life with the emerging of the dark side of Islam into modern life.

[Bapman]

You just didn't get my point.

When I meant ACTION... I didn't mean... 'Hey let's blow up the nearest thing we can find'

I meant "SHOWING IT".

VOY had lots of "action moments" if done properly would have amped up the episodes.

BUT

They prefer to have the bridge shaking... condutis blowing up... followed up by lots of artificial tension on the faces.

I mean this is what a standard ST serious moment is like...

"Sir... the're an unknown ship... in an intercept course... they're firing"

Bridge shakes...

"Direct hit... damage to the aft shield.... shield is down to 78%. Hull damage on deck 5."

Captain fixes her hair

"Evasive maneuvers... Tuvok... FIRE"

Sound of someone of firing bee bee guns

"Phasers fired Captain... minimal damage to their hull"

 

THAT was my point. If you're gonna HAVE something... show it. And complaining about dorky critism !?

PUH...LEEEZ

Did you read your own posts !?

You're SOOO ST biased that... to you ANYTHING ST has done is GRRREAT... kinda like TONY... he's GRRREAT.

Sorry.

I mean I'm sure they can have a craptastic episode on your favourite race... or internal struggle with the Romulans.... shown really badly.

YET

You'd find 1 re-deeming quality in it...n say that justifies saying that episode is good. Sorry... the rest of us don't work that way.

The ratings say it for themselves.

 

Hey... do a good quality search in NEMESIS... c'mooooooon. PLEASE.

[tcmullet]

You just didn't get my point.

When I meant ACTION... I didn't mean... 'Hey let's blow up the nearest thing we can find'

I meant "SHOWING IT".

Sorry, I guess I did miss it *partly*. Looks like you're saying that they cheated on the externals; when they could have shown an enemy weapon damaging the exterior of the ship, they instead showed all the shaking up inside. They actually did both, but you're right; they did a lot more of the inside stuff. That's an interesting observation. You've made me think. ... Not sure what the balance should have been. Problem w/always showing only indoor effects is it's boring. Problem w/outside effects is you don't see what happens to the people. (Unless they do both.) Perhaps they felt that what happens to people at the moment of attack is of more interest to the most viewers. I think I have to agree. However, I clearly (especially in Ent.) remember some *awesome* attack scenes from the outside. Perhaps more were in later incarnations as the spfx technology was better and cheaper to do than earlier.

 

... followed up by lots of artificial tension on the faces.

If the acting was better, the tension wouldn't look artificial. Maybe the good actors were getting bored themselves!

 

You're SOOO ST biased that... to you ANYTHING ST has done is GRRREAT... kinda like TONY... he's GRRREAT. ... You'd find 1 re-deeming quality in it...n say that justifies saying that episode is good. Sorry... the rest of us don't work that way.

The ratings say it for themselves.

 

Sorry it seems like that. (And sorry to rile you up.) Actually I do have some serious criticisms. I guess they're just not the same as, and not of the same magnitude of yours and most of the others.

 

A lot of the 3rd season of TOS is quasi-hokey, especially Spocks' Brain. (And we know the reason for that is when a guy named Fred Freiberger got involved. He's been the death of more than one series I've heard.) But I still want every episode in my collection. TNG has a few episodes that make me want to scream my head off and seek to burn the master copy.

 

But for most of each series, I've truly enjoyed every episode. True I liked some episodes less or even significantly less than others, but never enough to make me fail to watch it. Believe it or not, I've never been to a trekkie conference, I don't watch every episode when it's on (at least since taping all episodes), and I don't speak Klingonese or Vulcan to star trek friends. Gosh I hardly ever talk ST to anyone these days. And only a couple back during Ent. days.

 

So I'm not being falsely and blindly loyal to the franchise. I'm actually exercising restrain in expressing my severe criticisms. But as I've said, it only applies to very small portions of the franchise.

 

Hey... do a good quality search in NEMESIS... c'mooooooon. PLEASE.

Not sure what you meant by that. Obviously Nemesis is ST10, which I've only seen once. But what are you referring to by "do a good quality search in"?

[Bapman]

Well... I think the Japanese animations do pretty good interior n exterior.

n they can pull of the major ship battles quite well.

Sadly... the america series usually don't do that.

Example... they'll be showing the outside fight... n then there'll a small panel would open up showing what's happening inside... during the fight but not VERY important things like... fire torpedoes... seal of the deck.

AND during the important internal one...

they'll have the same thing but oppsite... u'll have a small panel showing wht's happening ouside.

 

I hope I managed to clarify it... think of ti like comic book panels. The movie HULK had tht type of styling.

Oh n I enjoyed all of ST... even I don't call myself a Trekie... I'm a fan

BUT

I'm open minded... for example... for ST to survive... you can't just exploration OR fights.

Neither will work... you need a balance of it. I agree with that.

and when I meant ACTION... I didn't mean fights... I guess I should've said... ADVENTURE. That's the type of action I meant.

I mean ST should have exploration... danger... philosophy... chills... thrills... action.

Like what FARSCAPE was like... except less insane n zany.

BUT

Half the time they bore people to sleep either with the treknobabble... or idiotic spacial anamoly or some form problem tht is VERY uninteresting. You can disagree all you want but u're an ST fan.

Sure the next point would be... every series has it ups n downs... BUT whn the downs are more... which IS incase of ST... it'll fall... n having more of those problems that caused the series death isn't going to bring it up.

The Best example would be... the SEASON 4 of ENTERPRISE... that's how the modern ST should be done.

Adventure... action... thrills.

Not just... "sir if we polarize the hull platings to the harmonic frequency of the EMP pulse etc etc"

or

"Fire phasers... shoot to kill shoot to kill"

BUT a blend... when a simple exaplanation made us understand everything. When the fights took place to VALID reasons.

Sighhhh... I miss KIRK n SISKO.

 

[tcmullet]

(off subject) id like to see the next trek series based entirely in the mirror universe....but that's just my opinion.....

Don't think it would work. ... But to do it every week would ... further hurt the believability of the series. The mirror concept (at least the idea that the *same* individuals have their counterparts) is really inplausible at least beyond a few years. That is' date=' once a major event happens to one person (like Archer being killed) that *affects* ongoing history, including all relationships with all people, which includes future marriages, children born, etc. ...[/quote']

 

The Ray Bradbury story 'A Sound of Thunder' was adapted (very loosely) to a movie by the same name.

 

The changes in the story accumulated over tens of millions of years. 500 or 1000 years after the butterfly's death, there would have been no noticeable large scale change. After 200 years any divergence would not have been significant.

Well, yes, in connection w/the death of simply a butterfly. And even 60 million years later, it only affected the syntax of English. But a *man* dying *certainly* affects the timeline with regard to human relationships pretty immediately. For example, Beverly Crusher dies before marrying. No Wes Crusher, and heck of a lot of events will be different. Get the point? Men (being sentients) are much more significant than mere insects. Perhaps one might say that in the world of butterflies, the relationships they have with each other might be affected. But the overall race of butterflys has little effect on the total ecosystem. And yes, Archer dying (for example) *might* not have much effect on mankind's total path for the following several centuries (even though I might beg to differ), but *certainly* a man's death will be significant with regard to those he relates to. So I stand by my position that significant diversions among sentients in the parallel (mirror) universes cannot allow for parallel identities, even in as little as 50 years in the future, let alone 200 years.

 

And of course all this goes back to the issue of believability, for which Star Trek as a whole, and TOS in particular were known for. And hence my preference for the mirror episodes to be kept to a minimum.

 

[Arktis]

DS9 writer A: This war is dragging on a bit!

DS9 writer B: How about another inappropriate happy episode? We mention the deaths of a few billion Federation citizens after the use of a biogenic weapon - then concentrate on the hilarious antics of Nog and Jake as they try and organise a surprise party for Quark!

DS9 writer A: No... we've already done that about a dozen times...

Together: MIRROR UNIVERSE EPISODE!

 

No danger of any plot development in these episodes - only lesbianism.

 

The Emperor's New Cloak is just so blatant for that fanservice.

 

I even remember seeing MORE mirror universe books when I was in the book shop. I think they had pretty much every single female character going around, lezzing up.

 

The mirror universe stuff is just for horny geeks. You're totally right. Poor writting mixed in with Kira's lesbian/dominatrix antics. Not exactly worthy material.

[MrDad]

(off subject) id like to see the next trek series based entirely in the mirror universe....but that's just my opinion.....

Don't think it would work. ... But to do it every week would ... further hurt the believability of the series. The mirror concept (at least the idea that the *same* individuals have their counterparts) is really inplausible at least beyond a few years. That is' date=' once a major event happens to one person (like Archer being killed) that *affects* ongoing history, including all relationships with all people, which includes future marriages, children born, etc. ...[/quote']

 

The Ray Bradbury story 'A Sound of Thunder' was adapted (very loosely) to a movie by the same name.

 

The changes in the story accumulated over tens of millions of years. 500 or 1000 years after the butterfly's death, there would have been no noticeable large scale change. After 200 years any divergence would not have been significant.

Well, yes, in connection w/the death of simply a butterfly. And even 60 million years later, it only affected the syntax of English. But a *man* dying *certainly* affects the timeline with regard to human relationships pretty immediately. For example, Beverly Crusher dies before marrying. No Wes Crusher, and heck of a lot of events will be different. Get the point? Men (being sentients) are much more significant than mere insects. Perhaps one might say that in the world of butterflies, the relationships they have with each other might be affected. But the overall race of butterflys has little effect on the total ecosystem. And yes, Archer dying (for example) *might* not have much effect on mankind's total path for the following several centuries (even though I might beg to differ), but *certainly* a man's death will be significant with regard to those he relates to. So I stand by my position that significant diversions among sentients in the parallel (mirror) universes cannot allow for parallel identities, even in as little as 50 years in the future, let alone 200 years.

 

And of course all this goes back to the issue of believability, for which Star Trek as a whole, and TOS in particular were known for. And hence my preference for the mirror episodes to be kept to a minimum.

It was the example you referenced to support your statement to which I responded. You should have picked something different, like Frank Capra's It's a Wonderful Life. It's a far better example to illustrate your point than A Sound of Thunder was.

[cbosdell]

the ship is destroyed be a nebula 500 light years from earth.