Looking back to 1989

[Pella]

Now that we have have Doctor Who back where it belongs - made in Britain, shown on BBC 1 at 7pm on Saturday and it's returned in an almost inconceivable sucessful way. Did the BBC do the right thing to cancel the show when they did.

 

I say yes!For me they did the right thing, the show had long since lost it's spirit in the late eighties. It had become nothing much more than a camp pantomine compared to it's former glories. The advent of the the 7th Doctor (I no longer blame Sylvester McCoy) lead to a huge decrease in the quality of the show with only a couple of exceptions: Curse and Ghostlight. I had long since left Dr Who at the point, treacherously lured away by something more believeable and better acted: The A-Team. At the time I was sad to see it go, but no overly bothered.

 

I didn't return to the TARDIS for another 14 years.

 

In hindsight - With it's 'death', it left a hole that needed to be filled. Without the axe I doubt we would have had the wonderful big finish plays. Who would have thought Peter Davison, or (especially) Colin Baker would willingly return to the role. We wouldn't have had Paul McGann as the 8th Doctor (you may not like the Tv movie - but his performances on the audios prove that he is more than match for his predessors).

 

And what about the books? NAs, MAs, EDAs, PDAs, etc. Some of the best works of any fiction are hidden in there. Until the Big Finish came along and the 8th Doctor lost his memory again (really Mr Richards and co. could have come up with something better), I was hooked. Every month I was there in Smiths on the day of publication for the next installment - especially the Fitz and Compassion era - I gasped when she fell from the tower and transformed into a TARDIS. It was great. There would also be no Bernice Summerfield. I came to Benny late, but now I embrace her as one of my heroines.

 

And finally the show would still be done on a shoestring budget with wobbly sets and cardboard cutout monters.

 

I'm glad the show is back. And it is good (well apart from the Slitheen 2 parter - grrr), It bigger and better than ever (almost) And David Tennant looks like he's going to be a wonderful replacement for CE. But would we have had the wealth of Doctor Who that we have now without the BBC making that fateful decision back in 1989?

[Cypha01]

Not at all. I consider the last season one of the best. It became darker, grittier, and the Doctor became much more of an anti-hero with lots of interesting backround and it brought back the mystery of the series that had been long gone since the crappy tom baker era. The stories became more darker/complex and the doctor became something really new and interesting. Season 26 is excellent. I loved the King Arthur mythology in "battlefield" which had the awesome Destroyer, one of the coolest and best realised monsters in the whole series, "Ghost Light" with its hardcore sci-fi and complexity and gothic atmosphere, "The Curse of Fenric" pure genius with a great twist and excellent storyline and the fantastic finale "Survival" with Anthony Ainley's finest performance, and who can beat that final line :

 

'There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.'

 

loved the TV movie too, very underated, probably because it was show in Canada and had an American production team, showed alot of promise and Mccoy put in a great performance. Its a big shame its come back as nothing much more than a camp pantomine compared to it's former glories, very shamefull. Russel T Davies should be ashamed for turning Dr who into a laughable parody that comes across as the Sci-fi equivilent of Britney Spears. I'll be damn glad when someone has the sense to cancel this trainwreck.

[Pella]

I agree that McCoy's last season was far superior to the previous two - The 7th Doctor was finally finding the right balance between comedy and drama - I love the 'cosmic manipulator' idea. Ace was finally starting to grow up - Sophie Aldred did her best Tv work here.

 

But for me it was to little too late. The rot started when JNT took over stewardship of the role and would take a couple of years to really set in.

 

How much superior is the 6th Doctor on audio to his TV stories. Colin Baker has always been an excellent lead, but he was let down by bad writing and a bad envisioning of his doctor. How could he possibly be supposed to endear himself with an audience when he starts by trying to kill his companion?

 

Much of the same can be said about McCoy, his best work maybe 'Curse of Fenric', but story for story how much better is his audio range?

 

When I was (much) younger I used to blame the lead actors, but an older me can see that it was mainly the writing and the direction that JNT took the show.

 

I have only 1 regret for the eighties. Colin Baker wasn't given a fair chance. If he had been the Doctor that he is in the audios today he would have had a good long run in the role, like he wanted to -IMHO.

[quig69]

First, Colin Baker may have been a good Doctor if he had better writing and a better persona(not to mention better fashion sense). I am still on the fence about him. Second, I believe McCoy could have brought the show back if given more time. It is hard to undo the damage that was already done to the series. Especially when he was given stories like "The Greatest Show in the Galaxy". I don't think Oscar winning actors could have made stories like that work.

[Cypha01]

Each to there own, I love The Greatest Show in the Galaxy. Beats anything from the new series. I think the later mccoy stories were just too complex and intricate for the mainstream audience, and for that, I say GOOD. Cos I dont care about mainstream success or selling out. :)

Truth is there is a whole generation of mccoy fans, and for people like me and many of my friends we wouldnt be dr who fans today if it wasnt for his era. Period. Perhaps he'll get the respect he deserves oneday.

[underscore]

Im afraid i didnt dig the mcoys very much........ I cant really think of a single story I ever feel much inclined to watch. There were a few ok baker stories, but most of mcoy's output had just descended into camp parody. The happiness patrol, and the one with the liqorice all sorts man were particularly bad..... what am i saying, they were all terrible :)

Sorry if that offends anyone, but as stated previously, mcoy didnt have anything even half decent to work with, so I guess it wasnt his fault. I am all for burning JNT at the stake really.

 

[paniq]

I stopped watching after S24. The production values had seemed to gone down a lot no longer shooting on film, severly low budget in terms of both production and writers.

 

I like McCoy in BF stuff, so maybe need to give S26 a bash? From what I've read around on S26 since this thread started, it does seem that there was potential there to turn things around as some of the stories were better than the earlier stuff given to McCoy - but by then things were too late, and I doubt they wanted to put money into it to boost production? So I would say yes, because it gave time for a mindset change to allow the new series - just a pity it took so long.

 

It is strange how people have seen the demise in ST:Enterprise and pointing towards Dr.Who for similarities.

 

[Pella]

Each to there own, I love The Greatest Show in the Galaxy. Beats anything from the new series. I think the later mccoy stories were just too complex and intricate for the mainstream audience, and for that, I say GOOD. Cos I dont care about mainstream success or selling out. :)

Truth is there is a whole generation of mccoy fans, and for people like me and many of my friends we wouldnt be dr who fans today if it wasnt for his era. Period. Perhaps he'll get the respect he deserves oneday.

 

Oh I don't think McCoy was a bad Doctor- he's more than proved himself since in the audio range. It was the show around him. Bad ideas, bad scripting, poor budgetting and the sense of that everyone was almost cring on screen as if they knew how bad it was.

 

It's not about selling out or being mainstream. It's about longevity. 'Classic' Doctor Who survived for so long because it always appealed to a mass audience and not just to it's own fanbase. If fact pandering to fanbase with overdoses of bad continuity was one of the things that killed the show. The same thing happened to Enterprise.

 

The new series being made at all relied in people who remembered the 'classic' series. These people were no sci-fi geeks, or hardcore fans. They were a broad spectrum of people who loved the show and wanted to bring it back.

 

It's a shame you don't like the new show, maybe that will change with a new Doctor -maybe not. I think there some excellent stories in there with the bonus of a decent budget behind it. I'll be the first to admit there was some rubbish in there too, but it definitely has more dignity and gravitas than 90% of the late eighties Doctor Who.

 

Just for my curiosity where do you stans on the Tv Movie?

 

Oh btw, did you know that the coda:

 

'There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.'

 

was only added the the final episode of Survival after the production team knew the show was being cancelled. I'll give JNT that, he gave the show a dignifed send off.

 

[GorunNova]

I found that in the TV series (and they continued this in the audio plays), they had McCoy's doctor basically wander around, tying up loose ends, and often fixing problems that he (or the Time Lords in general) left behind... I agree, McCoy had some good episodes, but they were mixed in with... not so good episodes, which was the problem.

 

... also, the Colin Baker's doctor only really flowers in the audio plays (then again, there has to be one or two good TV eps... I think.) While he was played as an arrogant, sometimes violent buffoon in the TV series, the audio plays have him closer to, well, the first doctor's sort of arrogance, but with a habit of glossing over his mistakes instead of the first doctor's habit of clinging onto his own version against evidence until the last moment.

 

Heh... The TV movie was interesting, but I far prefer the 8th doctor audio plays. They really experimented with him, and if you thought the 7th doctor was dark... well, even darker stuff happens with the 8th in these ones.

 

To get back on topic (^^'... bad habit of wandering off, I have ^^), I think the hiatus was probably for the best, especially since it would have probably died permanently if it DID continue, and we wouldn't have had the Big Finish audio plays... which, I must repeat, are for the most part good. Any -real- fan of Doctor Who must listen to those plays! It ain't optional... get listening! :D

[Pella]

Everything he said B) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Cypha01]

Oh I don't think McCoy was a bad Doctor- he's more than proved himself since in the audio range. It was the show around him. Bad ideas' date=' bad scripting, poor budgetting and the sense of that everyone was almost cring on screen as if they knew how bad it was. [/quote']

 

Well, I disagree, but I know im in the minority ;) I didnt like his first season, but that wasnt even written for him. I was 3 when I saw season 25 and I still love it today, Remembrance and Greatest show are great. Season 26 is perfection IMO. I thought the writing was rather clever, and it had soem of the best realised monsters the show ever had i.e. The Husks, Haemovores, The Destroyer, Cat People.

 

The new series being made at all relied in people who remembered the 'classic' series. These people were no sci-fi geeks' date=' or hardcore fans. They were a broad spectrum of people who loved the show and wanted to bring it back.[/quote']

 

I think thats half the problem, cos what I see isnt sci-fi, it comes across more as a soap with too much boring drama and emotional stuff I just dont care about.

 

t's a shame you don't like the new show' date=' maybe that will change with a new Doctor -maybe not. [/quote']

 

I'm not sure I even want to give it a chance TBH. The last series made me wish it never came back at all in all honesty.I could barely watch it, allthough ill admit it had a few moments that were pretty good i.e. the '9th' docs first meeting with a dalek that was very well written I thought. David Tennant maybe be the best doctor ever but the only way ill like it is if they write impressive stories that "Wow me" and back it up with high quality visuals, And that is something I havent seen with television sci-fi since Babylon 5's 4th season ended back in the 90's.

 

I think there some excellent stories in there with the bonus of a decent budget behind it.

 

Yeah, I thought the stories were really weak personally, none of them grabbed me, and my biggest problem was the endings, I allways felt let down by the end of the 45 mins with the way alot of the stories were so quickly tied up, and the endings felt extremely contrived (I.e. Anti-plastic, "everyone lives!", Dalek goes ET). I dont think the budget helped either because it looks very dated to me. I watching babylon 5 today and I thought the CGI in that looked alot better.

 

I'll be the first to admit there was some rubbish in there too' date=' but it definitely has more dignity and gravitas than 90% of the late eighties Doctor Who.[/quote']

 

Again I disagree, I think the late 80's had alot of great stories that were far less laughable and more watchable than the new series.

 

Just for my curiosity where do you stans on the Tv Movie?

 

It had a few annoyances, but the production, sets, acting were top class, Mccoy and Mcgann's costumes were PERFEC,. And the TARDIS looked great. The story was rather weak, but I really thought Mccoy and Mcgann's performance overshadowed it. For me personally it was the last proper canon Dr who episode. Anyway, I appreciate your politeness towards me, rather than bashing me for having different opinions like a few other boards iv been on.

[Pella]

I agree with your assessment of the TV movie - Loved the performances, and plenty of the individual scenes, but the plot as whole was not so good. Still it could have been a lot worse. Just read the book regenerations to see what i mean. I still give eight out of ten.

 

I will have to disagree with you about the eighties though. If you think your in minority though - Paul McGann is my favourite Doctor. harldy the most popular choice.

 

BTW: Why would I bash you for having a different opinion. If you just said x was crap and left it there, maybe, but you've a rational arguement of your opinion. Just because it's different to mine doesn't make it any less valid.

 

 

 

[Potato]

The happiness patrol' date=' and the one with the liqorice all sorts man were particularly bad.....[/quote']

 

As anyone who has seen a lot of my posts will atest I'm a bit of a nitpick. Which is why I fell the need to point out that in the quote above.....THEY ARE THE SAME STORY!!!!!!!!!

 

Wow, I think I gave myself a nosebleed there. Oh, well see ya'll later.

[Fenriswolf]

Zen Potato, Zen!

 

I would never touch liqorice allsorts again!

[starcrunch]

I really thought McCoy was a good Doctor, but I've never benn able to get over the stupid way he acted after regeneration in "Time and the Rani" The wat he so obviously fell down the steps, I still can't believe the director didn't force him to reshoot that scene, and the whole like, "but who am I, and who are you" with the pointing. It was just....well total gash.

 

I think that Survival stands out as exceptional, I loved the struggle with the Master, it reminded of Holmes and Moriarty on the cliff.

[Pella]

Wow! i can't belive how split down the middle we are on this. Even tho I voted Yes, I expected an overwhelming majority to say no. I guess now that we ahve more Doctor Who than ever before people are happier

 

Therefore, more Dr Who will lead to Utopia.;)

[Bob43434]

Ok first of all the BBC never cancelled Doctor Who. It was put on a temporary hiatus as they wanted to out source it (like they were doing with most of their programs back in the early 90's. Long story short, they enterned negotians back before 93 with several US studios (mainly dealing with Philip Segal as he was very interested in creating a nwe sereies of Doctor Who, but kept changing studios alot) before sighning a deal between Universal Studios and Fox Studios, with Segal as exuctive produce. The TV movie was produced as a back door pilot for a new series, and if it hadn't flopped then a new series would have begun dvelopmen in 96. But since it did, the BBC wasn't able to produce a new televison series until the rights had fully reverted back to them which happend a few years later. As a result they commisioned Big Finish to produce the audio series to test the ground to see if their was still enough interest to produce a new series. Their was and they began planning on bringin back Doctor Who it took a few years as they were planning on a Motion Picture as well as possibly a new series. They also toyed with using Paul McGann. Then BBC drama got a new head and the rest is pretty well known.

 

As for Colin Baker in the bf audios, his character development is what was planned in the series. Colin Baker actually signed a 5 year contract when accepted the part of the Doctor. He was also palnning on beating Tom's record as being the longest Doctor. Unfortuantly one of the head of department hated Doctor Who and was going to axe it. He was convinced to try out one more season but would only do it if the a new lead was cast as apparently he didn't like Colin Baker. Plus he figured that the usual trend for someone to be the Doctor was three years and Colin had done that so it was okay for him to go. What he didn't realsie that Colin had only done two seasons, but his first sotry was the end of 21st season ( Peters last) so on paper it looked like three years. Despit John Nathen Turners efforts to keep Colin he was only allowed to offer Colin a four part story to tie up the regenration. But Colin feeling betrayed and angry at teh BBC over his treatment refused (and rightly so). Other wise if he wasn't fired then his character would have developed into a darker character, as this was the paln from the begging. Since Colin was in for five years they ahd worked out his character development. That is why he was the most vilonet of all the Doctors and never had a problem with using a gun to kill someone. Thus BF is only doing what was planned which Colin Baker liked the idea and has experessed in interviews that he is pleased that Big Finish have decided to keep that development.

 

Also, I love the 8th Doctor. I love how over the course of the Big Finish plays he has got darker. I loved him in the movie and my only problems with the movie was the fact that the plot sucked, Eric Roberts wasn't able to pull off a convincing Master and the fact that the Doctor shared a kiss with Grace. Which was put in only because the 20th Century Fox execs insited. It was pretty pointless didn't seem right and defiantly was not the Doctor. Unlike the CE kiss with Rose. That one made sense and it wasn't because of sexual tension or any of the usual reasons for a kiss in a show. It was to save Rose by sucking out the enrgies of the time vortex. Wich, him being a Time Lord is entirely plausible.

[bbbb]

Wow, 1989. Yikes that's a long time ago. I don't watch Dr.Who but I do watch Star Trek and Star Wars (please put the Star Wars trilogy pre-se edition 700mb movies back up, please!). Star Trek was very different then. They had less talk and more action.

[Bob43434]

Yes but Doctor Who began long before the original Star Trek, hence it is the longest running sci-fi show in the world. Thank god the BBC doesn't have to rely on commercial succes so they don't sacrafice good story for pointless actioon and sex symbols. (Okay, some of Peri's costumes might seem like sex symbol approach, but they never used her like Star Trek uses it's women. Having them strip down to nothing in Eterprises first episode, and one of the early scenes.). As for 1989, that's around the Time The Next Generation started. It had more talking then the later spin offs as it wasn't relying on action to score decent ratings, instead it relied on good stories. As for Star Wars, why would you want the Non Special Editions?

[Potato]

Doctor Who started in 1963 and Star Trek in 1966...not what I would call "long before", especially when you say 1989 was "around the time" that TNG started (it started in 1987). So if 2 years is "around the time" 3 years cannot be "long before". Sorry, as everyone knows I like to nitpick.