mateya Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Ahhh - Another example - Voyager was destroyed to many times ^ of course it was, what did you expect - voyager is not a defiant as you said. and in reality different timelines are probably the only way to get them home and not look to incredible isnt it? ;) now Im teasing you - nevermind, all Im saying is that ciscos story is as much unbelivable as voyagers. wormhole gods - be fair, DS9 is not a reality show. hmm, but it has battles in it and youre a boy - well that says it all, doesnt it? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Although....DS9 was destroyed and Defiant was destroyed once..... anyway I like to think of myself as a young man thank you! :) and i'm not just interested in the battles - the battles are cool but there is obviously a lot more that interests me as well - drama, mystery - and many of the episodes that have no battles or even action are some of the best in my opinion. Like the Ferengi eps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 I think that VOY had a good story line, but it was put together all wronge. They should of had a better captian, well.. basicly a better crew... and the senarios that came up where less than impressive. well this is imho. so w/e. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 you are like mac users, even when they get an intel procesor in it they still claim its far better than PC :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vyper Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Voyager was watched because once DS9 finished it was the only thing left. I say this not out of spite as some sort of DS9 fanboy, but because Voyager truly did have huge problems. Let me put it this way, go and watch an episode of TNG (say season 4 or 5) and then watch any of Voyager. You will soon notice that no matter how improved the CGI was, the acting paled in comparison. Gates McFadden had more acting ability in one fingernail than Kate Mulgrew had in her whole body. Likewise, Chakotay (dear god it's been so long I may not be spelling it properly) was a tragically under-played character in comparison to Riker. Oh, and Neelix. He is the Jar Jar of the Star Trek universe. Put simply, it tried to be nice at first, then shift into being "gritty" as they get further into the "desperate ship" plot. Unfortunately neither came off properly. I've not drawn any comparisons to Patrick Stewart out of fairness, since he was a Shakespearian actor well before star trek and thus had an unfair advantage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Well put ^ VOY was only watched b/c there was nothing else. VOY is and always will be in the shadow of the great DS9. just as DS9 will always be in the shadow of the great TNG. ENT just xxxxxx. IMHO, ENT and VOY where poorly made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 See, I think the reasoning of Berman and Braga was probably something along the lines of (well, actually I don't recall Braga being involved in DS9 but I assume him and Berman still chatted etc.) Basically - TNG was a hit, year on year increase in ratings. It was episodic, had treknobabble and had quite a lot of the "oh no! A new energy field is disrupting the engines!" DS9 - probably the only Trek to even approach being serial, far more involved character development and longer runnings plots but suffers from gradually declining ratings. So they think - well, TNG is obviously the kind of thing people like! So they give you MORE treknobabble, MORE anomalies! LESS continuity! And even though they're trapped in the Delta quadrant tens of thousands of light years away from home, they never even get close to being as nervy or on edge as DS9's crew during the war - because people obviously didn't like edgy! After 7 years of Voyager, they see that ratings aren't getting any better - so they then try and do the opposite. Reduce the treknobabble! Reduce the anomalies! So you have ENT which is just a bit of a snorefest for the first two seasons, then goes on a whole war against terror and only shows any promise in season 4. I have to agree with GhostShadow on his appraisal though - TNG>DS9>VOY>ENT. Presumably whatever comes next will be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7777 Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I'm prob closest to TNG because I grew up watching it and I love the cast. I mean first I'm watching PBS and Levar Burton is teaching me how to read in Reading Rainbow, then my mom gets me into TNG and now he's teaching me warp physics. -Thank you Levar, your one of my highest mentors (lol) And Data is so interesting and funny. He is prob why they created 7 of 9. Her beauty makes up for the lack of humor I guess. If people liked cyborg crew in the TNG, why not put one on Voy? And when Patric S. is your captian, you just can't go wrong. Will Riker was there to teach us how to get the ladies while Diana Troy's beauty put a smile on your face everytime she came on the scene. Warf is just cool because you can quote him. ex "It is a good day to die". Actually, his nobility is inspiring. For some reason though, I like VOY better. It's just more fresh, more serious and more suspenseful. It has a great plot where TNG and DS9 don't have any concluding goal. There will never be an end to 'Exploring strange new life' or serving as a space station, but VOY has the goal of getting home. I actually never really got into DS9 or ENT. Every time I tried to watch DS9, it seemed like life competely revolved around that space station of thiers. Hence the title I guess. I like cool looking ships that go places and have to fire photon torpedos at things while jumping through worm holes. ENT just didn't have the Star Trek feeling at all. A large part of Stay Trek is it's dialog, but ENT's bored me. Maybe I just need to give ENT and DS9 more chances? TNG and VOY sucked me in right away. Should I give these guys another chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 HELL YES!. give DS9 another chance. DS9 was going out side the normal relem of ST by giving it a 'soap opera' feeling to it. It showed the development of the charachters very well. But i must say that DS9 started off whith no concluding goal, but when that war came alonge, you had you goal. DS9 gave the federation a more personal view. It allowed the viewers to see up close how the Federation deals with an other culture for an extended time. I really liked how they showed Bajor always trying to achive federation membership. To me that was a good thing. TNG did show a personal side, dont get me wronge. i am just saying that DS9 allows you to see the federation in a time of crisis and a time of peace. I liked that. To me VOY was to formal... some ppl might say "waht are you talking about, it was the bondage of 150 ppl in the middel of the delta quad.. how is that formal", well yes.. that is true, but VOY never really explored the 'why' of their actions... they never say why they did someting.. not to the extent of DS9. That is what makes it a lesser show than DS9. DS9 ----> great charachter development, showed a deep contection between chrachters and actions. VOY-----> some charachter development, showed a conection between actions and federation morals... does not explain why they did what they did. They where stcuk to the PD and almost had no free will. It sounds crazy but that is my opinion, and i like a conection in my ST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 sorry but I dont see any caracter development worth metioning in kira neeris case. only in the last season there was some change - she was prepared to help cardasians in their guerilla fight. some mature growing up on her part, but otherwise.. and dont me get started on ciscos son (forget the name), he was so - well, not noticable. at least for me. but it wasnt bad, dont get me wrog. I like the show very much. ferengi had a second coming there :) some of the eps with ferengi were one of the best in DS9 - remember them in the magnificent ferengi when they had to save "moogie"? hillarious :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bapman Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 In the VOY... to be honest... DOC... B'Elanna n Paris were the only ones who got some character developement. The Captain got a lot of hairdoes... but that's about it. CHEKOTAY was full of potential n his speeches were really MOVING... but other than his romance with 7... his other character development plots never went anywhere beyond 1 episode. Neelix was just plain n simple annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 DS9 Movie!!! 7 of 9 and the Doc also had loads of character development i think - compare the first few eps of seeing them to the last few eps.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcmullet Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 ditto, voyager is the best for me! :) DS9 after worf came on board was also good. but I cant stand bashir - who is seeing him as "atracitve" is beyond my perception.. now worf for example is another matter ;) Who cares about whether Bashir is attractive or not? (Maybe some girls.) Over time, his character became *very* interesting and a very good part of the whole DS9 series. I was amazed at times at how good some Bashir episodes became. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 please, dont hurt my eyes with that writing. the man is annoying to me as neelix is to bapman.. still, you are right, some episodes are quite good - section32 related. but the guy is portraid as ladies man - now thats insulting (yeah, Im a female). so some episodes are quite unbelivable to me becose of that. all little and skinny; sheesh, ladies man indeed.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcmullet Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Ok... the REASONS... why ppl consider VOY bad. 1) No major character died... if you disagree... feel free to prove me wrong. Good luck 'cause I've seen the series 3 times. Lastly... KES doesn't count 'cause she grew old... and LEFT Voyager. Bapman, sorry to get on this again. But would you please tell me why the hell a major character has to DIE for the series to be good??? Dammit a good series *tries* to keep everyone alive to the end. Yes, sometimes a tragic loss should occur, because that reflects real life. But to say a series aint good cuz no major character dies off? Why, the heck?? Noone died in TNG, did you know that?? Well yes, Tasha died, but NOT BECAUSE TNG PRODUCERS WANTED THAT. It was that stupid actress (Denise Crosby) that wanted to quit, so the producers WROTE her death into it. Fortunately it provided good plot material for later reappearances of her, but noone else died, and I'm GLAD!!! Now that I think of it, most everyone DID *half* die. Remember early there was a transporter-type malfunction and the ship was split into two copies. All of one copy was destroyed except for Harry Kim who's counterpart was killed, so they swapped Kim and made a full crew albeit Kim from one copy and the rest from the other. That enough "death" for you? (And the caretaker died in the 1st episode, but i guess you'd say he wasn't major.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcmullet Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Ahhh - Another example - Voyager was destroyed to many times ^Are you kidding? Those are some of the neatest shows. Of course perhaps they appear neater to those who are time-travel fans also. I guess some trekkers are not time-travel fans. This is why I can consider a movie I never saw until 35 to be a quasi time-travel classic, It's a Wonderful Life!! (Just won a bid on ebay for a CAV laserdisc of it. Looking forward to it greatly.) And don't tell me it's not time-travel! Has two timelines, well developed and very meaningful! And reflective of what I said elsewhere about gumming up the timeline. Well now that I've vented a bit, maybe Voyager *was* smashed a *few* times too many. But each time it happened, I was greatly hooked. Guess the producers knew that and tried over time to milk it for all it was worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcmullet Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 please, dont hurt my eyes with that writing. the man is annoying to me as neelix is to bapman.. still, you are right, some episodes are quite good - section32 related. but the guy is portraid as ladies man - now thats insulting (yeah, Im a female). so some episodes are quite unbelivable to me becose of that. all little and skinny; sheesh, ladies man indeed.. Thanks for responding. I know some who dislike TNG because it has Ferengi. My response is Yes they're nasty and unlikeable. And feeling that way is *supposed* to be a part of the overall experience of enjoying the show. Yes, they're nasty and yes I'm glad they were in it. I missed Bap's dislike of Neelix. But I can imagine. Maybe Neelix isn't desirable to be around, but the character exists in the story, so he should be tolerated. And as for your Bashir-dislike, don't you get it? Bashir was not a ladies man; he was a ladies-man *wannabe*! Surprised you missed that. Of course he has to be a skinny runt. That helps make his futile efforts so realistic. And it's also a part of why I think Faddil's acting was so good. It's hard for a normal guy to play a part like that. But it added greatly to the show, especially for so many trekkers who would probably identify with him. His eventually "success" probably gave hope to some male trekkers in similar boats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Ahhh - Another example - Voyager was destroyed to many times ^Are you kidding? Those are some of the neatest shows. Of course perhaps they appear neater to those who are time-travel fans also. I guess some trekkers are not time-travel fans. This is why I can consider a movie I never saw until 35 to be a quasi time-travel classic, It's a Wonderful Life!! (Just won a bid on ebay for a CAV laserdisc of it. Looking forward to it greatly.) And don't tell me it's not time-travel! Has two timelines, well developed and very meaningful! And reflective of what I said elsewhere about gumming up the timeline. Well now that I've vented a bit, maybe Voyager *was* smashed a *few* times too many. But each time it happened, I was greatly hooked. Guess the producers knew that and tried over time to milk it for all it was worth. well i suppose - i mean Timeless where Voy smashed into that ice planet was a really good episode - i'm not saying that those eps that Voy was destroyed in where bad - i'm just saying that the number of times it was destroyed means that if were to be destroyed for real it would be like "oh....again....." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 And as for your Bashir-dislike' date=' don't you get it? Bashir was not a ladies man; he was al ladies-man *wannabe*! Surprised you missed that. Of course he has to be a skinny runt. That helps make his futile efforts so realistic. And it's also a part of why I think Faddil's acting was so good. It's hard for a normal guy to play a part like that. But it added greatly to the show, especially for so many trekkers who would probably identify with him. His eventually "success" probably gave hope to some male trekkers in similar boats.[/quote'] I see - really didnt see it that way. probably becose Im not a "male trekker in similar boat" ;) but I agreee, it was surely meant that way but I never noticed it before now.. and I like ferengi - such a funny bunch :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bapman Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 To TC Mullet's response about major characters dying... Tasha... Data... can't think of anyone... heck even KIRK died. You can go on about how it was not INTENDED... but point is... THEY DID... n that added depth to the story n the characters. In DS-9 Jadzia... Vadek Berial... Plus... you had one major character become bad guy... thn die. In VOY... We had tonnes of random character deaths... and among the major characters... we had KES... get old. It really puts off any tension or anything from a series. The series had no depth. Even when they did... in the end it made no difference. PLUS... yes... about the ship getting blown up too much. Sooo you're actually saying you LIKE... that they get into a dire situation... die... then come back to normal to show that... this episode had to point whatsoever other than to show some cool effects... moody characters... and some deep emotional line in the end. Great... this is what it has come down to... we ACTUALLY start not only defending VOY's bad qualities... but trying to pass them out as good. You sure you're not BRAGA or BERMAN !? To TFMF... have to agree with you on that. TIMELESS... YEAR of HELL... FUTURE TENSE or was it A PAST FUTURE THING Forgot. They are some of FAV VOY episodes... but that doesn't stop them from being having bad endings... ok maybe not Timeless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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