mateya Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I know this is repeating but: - to add character some depth you dont need to kill them - ship getting blown up too much; it would be more unbelivable if they would come home without any of these "blowing up" eps imho (delta quadrat is not exaclty a picnic area) and the name of the ship is voyager - that sholud tell you what is all about. the stories about a lost ship going home. the end :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bapman Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I'm repeating too... but here goes - But there WERE no chracter depth anyway... other than the DOC ofcourse. - Sooo its unbelievable... if the ship DOESN'T get blown up... BUT it's plausible AND believable that in EACH case they miraculously manage to change time n save the ship. Brilliant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I'm repeating too... but here goes - But there WERE no chracter depth anyway... other than the DOC ofcourse. - Sooo its unbelievable... if the ship DOESN'T get blown up... BUT it's plausible AND believable that in EACH case they miraculously manage to change time n save the ship. Brilliant! 1. the main caracter development: emg, seven of nine small caracter development: kim (from rookie to quite capable) , paris (he acctually get a wife:)), jayneway (as an admiral she went really cinical) 2. its so much possible both ways that I dont understand why you think one way is so much more belivable. afterall we live in an universe with quantum laws apllied all over us.. anything is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bapman Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Exactly my point... since NEITHER are believable... you do something in between. You have the ship getting damaged n just clinging on... for more than 1 episode. AND Have the occsaional getting setroyed... 1 or 2 times... n they barely manage to save the ship. See... that keeps the feel of tension. The way THEY showed... it was more like... hey I know nothing's gonna happen... n if something DOES... they'll fix it by the end of the arc. Yes... the 7 of 9 character depth... WOW... she went from a stiff character to a stiff character who smiled... n suddenly got involved with chekotay outta nowhere. KIM... wow... capable... ok I won't say anything since I like the character... but seriously... CAPABLE !?... He did stuff... n half of them were either in an alternate timeline or something else. JANEWAY character depth... HAHAHAHAHAHA Ok sorry... that was uncalled for... but ur ACTUALLY counting the Admiral Janeway as character depth !? Oh man... desperate aren't we !? Paris n B'Lanna... ya I can agree... somewhat... na actually I agree totally. But what about CHEKOTAY... TUVOK... NEELIX... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Yeah i agree Bapman - the character development for Chekotay, Tuvok and Neelix was practically non-existant. and much of the other characters development didn't compare to the DS9 crew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bapman Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 No no no.... no DS-9 Remember wht C4 said... this thread is about VOY. ;) Got bring in another series to steal its thunder :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Well it's simply a comparison of the Voyager crew to the DS9 crew.....nothing more :rolleyes: Voyager seemed to focus on other issues other than character development.....i don't know what though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Im not saying its perfect but its not that bad :) in DS9 you also have "udernurished" caracters, the only thing going for them is the last seasons when you see the war having some impact on the set and caracters (+ more continuing storyline at the end). but that doesnt make voy incompareable to other st. cmon jadzias caracter is the same all the time througt the series and also kira, quark & his brother, odo, cicsos son.. but I agree chakotay, tuvok and neelix are unexplored potecials in voy and thats a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Well for one thing we saw Jake grow up :) Odo did change - learned much more of himself and made friends which in turn made him a much more friendly character. Kira changed from an aggressive charceter to a calmer more 'starfleet' shall we say character. Rom made a big change - when we first saw him he was almost.....INTELLIGENT!!!!.....well that certainly changed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 sorry but I dont see any caracter development worth metioning in kira neeris case. only in the last season there was some change - she was prepared to help cardasians in their guerilla fight. some mature growing up on her part, but otherwise.. and dont me get started on ciscos son (forget the name), he was so - well, not noticable. at least for me. but it wasnt bad, dont get me wrog. I like the show very much. ferengi had a second coming there :) some of the eps with ferengi were one of the best in DS9 - remember them in the magnificent ferengi when they had to save "moogie"? hillarious :D I think she developed a lot; When we first meet her, she was cocky, arrogant, strong willed, and opposed sisko and the Federation. Around season 2 she beacame a bit more soft, still sharp around the edges, but she came to respect sisko more. Around season 3 she was pro-federation, a friend of sisko, and yet still had a biet to her bark. In the later seasons she was actualy fighting for membership in the federation. She had a lot of charachter development under her belt imho. She was actucaly once of my favriote charachters in DS9, i guess she just didnt have the development that most ppl wanted to see, i dont know what ppl expected come to think of it. I mean she was supposed to be rough like she was, and they had her turn pro federation b/c it was showing that the federation can turn even hard asses like kira into pro federation allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bapman Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 I have to Admit... DS-9... all of the major character changed... evolved... grew. Kira... more arrogant pissed off to nice mature woman. Odo... from a super annoyed Security chief to a lover... a sarcastic funny guy n well... he changed a LOT. Sisko... do I EVEN need to go there !? Jake... from a simple brat to a mature writer to a war journalist. Nog... seriously... another character tht doesn't even need explanation QUARK... ANOTHER prime example... from a low life bartender to an actual caring person with more on his mind than himself. ROM... from a bartender to an Engineer... plus got married. Dr. BASHIR... from a skinny brat to a Eugenics doctor. From a silly guy to a serious genius. Chief o Brian... ok he was a dead rat who stayed dead. BUT he did have lotsa good eps. Vic Fontaine... from a simple hologram to a bartender singer prime time. Seriously... you can't even COMPARE the VOY characters to these. EMH / The DOC... this was DA MAN !!! He is the ONLY guy who'se chracter progressed... n progressed well 7 OF 9... Kira of VOY... only she still stayed bi|chie... but learned to smile n had a half a$$ed romance with Chekotay. NEELIX... he wore different clothes... became a diplomat, a fighter n then stayed behind... interesting... he DID have more significant character developement than the rest. HARRY KIM... went from an unlikable Ensign to a likable one... who talked back to TUVOK...... ONCE in the entire series... yesss... super character developement there. PARIS... ok I love this guy... but he needed more rebelliousness. He basically just got involved with B'lenna n got married. TORRES... ok SHE had good character depth... from arrogant shouting match dependant officer to a nice calm woman... who got married n had a child. CHEKOTAY... He started with giving good speeches... to less speeches... got involved with 7 outta nowhere... n tht's about it. Oh we also find about his connection with the red indian aliens... the significance of it !? Absolutely nothing. KES... what character !?... She was the token pretty girl... who exited after 7 came... IMMEDIATELY after 7 came. TUVOK... illogical to think he's gonna have any character changes or depth. JANEWAY... yesss.... she got lots of hairdoes... oh yeah.... superb depth there... oh wait... her FUTURE self also came back from the future to show her what she's like in the last 2 episodes. Yeah I'm done rambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 well i think that miles o'brian had already developed in TNG and thus did not need much more. And you for got about Worf. He changed ALOT. from a cold hearted warrior to a warm hearted one. "Dr. BASHIR... from a skinny brat to a Eugenics doctor. From a silly guy to a serious genius. " well, i think he went from a 'boy' to a 'man'. he developed a lot. but for the most part i agree with you. VOY did not develop much as DS9 did. and like i said, DS9 gave a personal tone of the Federation to the viewers. That is what i liked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bapman Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Damn forgot WORF... 1 of my FAVS Don't get me wrong... I like the chief. n yeah.. Bashir became a man... that's the line I was looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 lol, great minds think alike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcmullet Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 I see - really didnt see it that way. probably becose Im not a "male trekker in similar boat" ;) but I agreee' date=' it was surely meant that way but I never noticed it before now..[/quote']Glad to help you see the male perspective (at least mine). :) and I like ferengi - such a funny bunch :DYou might find it interesting that the person I had in mind who disliked DS9 because it had Ferengi regulars and they were so harsh nasty and ugly, was a woman! Glad that as a woman, you found them to be funny. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcmullet Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 ...PLUS... yes... about the ship getting blown up too much. Sooo you're actually saying you LIKE... that they get into a dire situation... die... then come back to normal to show that... this episode had no point whatsoever other than to show some cool effects... moody characters... and some deep emotional line in the end. Great... this is what it has come down to... we ACTUALLY start not only defending VOY's bad qualities... but trying to pass them out as good. You sure you're not BRAGA or BERMAN !? No am surely not; am an underemployed guy who's spending too much time recording and downloading video files. (And now am spending perhaps too much time writing in forums.) Fwiw, I used to be a professional computer programmer, but didn't keep up and became obsolete. I now have a parttime freelance weed-pulling business here in Fla. Got a B.S. degree in Comp.Sci. which is now useless to me. Am reporting this to show I'm not a 6th grade dork. Am apparently just different. Perhaps I'd make a lousy "Siskel and Ebert". Perhaps we should conclude that there truly are different perspectives. That is, maybe even a specific quality might be sincerely seen as bad by one, and good by another. Mateya, thanks for your support in the matter of characters dying. Yes, Voyager (yea, all of ST) is supposed to be exploration and diplomacy. I think of a friend who years ago responded to my query of why didn't starfleet start using the cloaking techno. that Kirk snatched in TOS. He (who had read of lot of Trek lore) said that cloaking was a military tool, and Starfleet was not a military operation; that's why they chose not to implement it in TNG. To all: We may have a discrepancy in what we mean by character development. In all your recent posts about it, you all kept talking about how this or that character CHANGED over time. That's not what *I* mean. *I'm* referring merely to the fact that over time we see the person's existing personality come out in the various things that happen to them. I'm saying that the *show* "develops" or DEFINES the character over time. Am not referring to instances of someone's characteristics CHANGING. (Although that certainly did occur, esp. 7of9.) A weakness of TOS was that the personalities weren't as well-defined as they could have been. There was so much techno-babble, and less focus on personal aspects. TNG was radically different. After a few months, and especially after about the 3rd season, we knew these characters very well. They were real people with real feelings and struggles; people we could identify with. To me, that's character development (the producers/writers "develop" the character), regardless of whether the individuals change over time at all. As far as a person's (character's) CHANGES over time, yes over 7 years, we'd expect and hope that a character, especially those under senior age, would be maturing and getting wiser, just like a person in real life hopefully is. But one of you said O'Brian didn't change much. That's okay; he was already pretty mature, being older (and more married) than most of the other characters. I don't think Picard changed much; we merely saw more and more of what he was really like all along. If I'm wrong on any of this, feel free to correct me anyone. I'm not too old to learn new things or be corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Then how is there any other posible way to deifne a charachter change if not by the way they act under a certian situation compaired to how they have acted? An old quote comes to mind "The person you are now, and the person you will be in 20 years from now are the same. The only diffrence will be the books you have read and the people you meet." so in a way the charchters are the same at the end of the series as they where at the start of the series. But things happen to ppl. like Dukat. he chnged the most and yet stayed the same.. so its all a matter of prespective on how you precive chage, so you are right in a way. And the Federation did not use Cloke b/c of the treaty of algeron. It can do with military reasons but we see in TNG that one admrial ( name has been lost in time, can some one hlep ) use a new cloke on the pegasus. So i think that military reasons is just a for-cover. Meaning that They can act all high and mighty but when it comes down to it, the federation has its secrets too, i.e. Section 31 and USS Peguses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Admiral Pressman for all we know he worked for Section 31....but anyway...A character will develop by experience - you are right that the people he/she meets and what they learn will help in this development. I don't think, in the case of Dukat, that he changed - but more like he got comfortable with the role and modified the character slightly to make him a better character....this - we did not see a lot of in Voyager... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 yeah i agree mostly, but i think Dukat changed a lot. I think that at the begging he told himself that he was savor of bajor, he kept telling every one that too. Then later on I thin khe actuayl started to beilieve that. There are a lot of eps where it shows Dukat change; 'Watlz' and when he turns into the pa wrath in season 7, that has a lot of eps. In teh eps of 'covenet' Kira even said that he has changed and that his faith in teh pa wrath has bade him even more powerful and dangurous than before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 what is shinola? sounds funny tho :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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