Two DS9 quibbles

[Tenebrae]

First off - the conflicting message of DS9.

 

Conflicting not with itself... but with the rest of the series.

 

I mean, they're essentially saying in S7 that it's ALL the Prophets that turn the tide of the war. It was bad enough that they're the deus ex device that not only eliminates a massive Dominion fleet... but then, they have to mean the Dominion won't even dare to send anything through the wormhole.

 

Much of that flies in the face of the previously established backstory for the Prophets... I mean, they let Bajor get occupied and show a total lack of understanding of corporeal existence and complete non-interest to partake in it but then Sisko asks them nice and they stop the Dominion... weak. super weak.

 

Secondly... why the hell has the Defiant got two command officers - at the most. They've filled a bridge full of engineers and science/medical officers. Steveo and I were pondering this... I mean, they have BASHIR on the bridge. Sure he's genetically enhanced but Ezri? Kira? O'brian?

 

It's just a bit sloppy really if you ask me.

[maverick]

cos they can....

[GhostShadow]

lol, you read to much into it. The Defient is for the senior staff... but i have seen odo on there a few times...

 

but the wormhole alines let bajor get conqured for 1 of 3 reasons..

 

1) They did not understand Coporial life enough to know whats going on

 

2) They had no power over the cardassians b/c they did not fly through the wormhole.

 

3) The Pa wraith are the true gods and would never let that happen

 

I like option 3 the best, lol :p

[TFMF]

well....pretending option 3 wasn't there....;) it's clear that the prophets just didn't understand linear time and all that jazz. Sisko showed them all about this and so they were able to help Sisko.

 

And the Command Officer situation - well yeah i mean they even had Garak at a station.....don't know why...but i mean Ezri has all those lives of experience and stuff so i can understand her being there - Bashir just gets bored so he comes up for a chat. Odo is a security officer so that's why he gets to be there. Kira is a very experienced commander and all so yeah she's deffinetly 1st officer. Obrien is like Ensign Kim really or Data.....except more like Torres...or Geordie....hmm....well he still seems to be the right choice to be on the bridge and i understand why they put him there - and we do see him in Engineering a lot

[Arktis]

I have to agree with Tenebrae. DS9 systematicly destroys the ideas behind Star Trek IMHO.

 

Beyond the need for religion/gods ---> Depending on gods.

 

Beyond the need for money ---> Money is required for the day-to day operations of the station

 

Prime directive prohibits starfleet from interfering with the development of other worlds especially including religion ---> A starfleet officer is a highly religious figure.

 

Peace above all ---> War, war, war, and more bloody war. and oh yeah, let's break our bonds with all moral code to accomplish our objectives, like bringing the romulans into the fight.

 

This is also the first series to introduce the concept of Section 31.

 

And many more things that don't readily come to mind at the moment, but I trust my point is made. It's like the show was just showing one big corruption of the Federation.

[TFMF]

Oh - so you think it would be better if the Federation were perfect.

 

This kind of corruption made Star Trek - at first Sisko didn't like the idea of being the Emissary but he has embraced the fact that he is and i think made the whole DS9 series that bit more entertaining.

 

And you say Section 31 is actually part of the Federation - they may say they are but that isn't what the Federation is...

[Potato]

I think you are overlooking the fact that the purpose of Sci-Fi is to hold a mirror up to society. The Federation isn't perfect because society isn't perfect. "Life is pain. Anyone who tells you differently is selling something."

[Arktis]

I'd rather dream of a better tomorrow than give that vision up because someone else says it's unrealistic, or give it up because people think a drama about war is more entertaining. That kind of thinking is unintelligent and stiffles progress, compassion, and immagination.

 

I think you should both be ashamed. Of course you have the right to disagree, but that's not going to stop me.

[GhostShadow]

IMHO, The Federation became succsesful b/c of smart captians. Star Fleet trains their captians to have common sense and teach them to be open minded and teach them to respect other cultures and ppl and ideals ect.. If you see that as currupt then I am sorry for you.

 

ST would not be a show that was well liked if they had the perfect federation and there was no blood shed and every thing was happy-go-fun. The ST series is is really educatonal, it teaches morals and the diffrnece between right and wronge. It shows how officers grasp a situation and 'how to dea withl the cards delt'-if you will.

 

So if teaching this to ppl means a littel discrepancy, then i will not argue with it.

[Elessar]

First off - the conflicting message of DS9.

 

Conflicting not with itself... but with the rest of the series.

 

I mean, they're essentially saying in S7 that it's ALL the Prophets that turn the tide of the war. It was bad enough that they're the deus ex device that not only eliminates a massive Dominion fleet... but then, they have to mean the Dominion won't even dare to send anything through the wormhole.

 

Much of that flies in the face of the previously established backstory for the Prophets... I mean, they let Bajor get occupied and show a total lack of understanding of corporeal existence and complete non-interest to partake in it but then Sisko asks them nice and they stop the Dominion... weak. super weak.

 

Secondly... why the hell has the Defiant got two command officers - at the most. They've filled a bridge full of engineers and science/medical officers. Steveo and I were pondering this... I mean, they have BASHIR on the bridge. Sure he's genetically enhanced but Ezri? Kira? O'brian?

 

It's just a bit sloppy really if you ask me.

 

First of all, you're missing a crucial variable to the Prophet equation... Sisko. He is the Emissary and he is what they have been waiting for, the "time of the Emissary", the events that take place during that time and the Prophets' behavior cannot be evaluated based on a track record of the past - it's a time of revelation! Of massive change!

 

And as for the Defiant....what do you mean by "Command" officers? Becuase as far as I count it, "Command" officers are the ones with the red collars or the red tags or the red upper shoulder dpeending on the season. And 1. Kira's not a Command Officer she's not even in Starfleet, 2. Ezri's not a command officer she's a SCIENCE officer, 3. Bashir's not a command officer he's a MEDICAL officer, 4. O'Brian's not a Command Officer he's an ENGINEER! So wtf are you complaining about?

[Arktis]

You've missunderstood him. He's saying that the defiant ONLY has two command officers. Kira and Sisko, then later Worf which he left out And yes, Kira is a command officer. She's a bajoran MAJOR (later a Kernel) but she does mostly difer to Sisko. In fact, that's all she really does besides pester diplomats and politicians to try and push her adgenda, which she stops after a the first two seasons or so anyways.

 

He's not saying that the other crew members are commanders.

 

And nobody's missing this "crucial variable", in fact that very thing is what makes the show problematic. Starfleet doesn't believe in gods, remember? They are aliens outside of linear time. However, during the DS9 series, that very value is repeatedly compromised, something that starfleet should take great offense to... only there is a threat of dangerous conflict and later war involved, and we all know that war changes everything. All the rules go out the window. And that's exactly what happens in DS9, the federation's previously established codes of conduct simply errode into dust. It's a ruination of the Star Trek values that made the shows great.

 

And I'd like to add that Star Trek has always dealt with these real kind of issues, but from a perspective of peace, not war.

 

I know most of you are used to being bombarded with news of threats, wars, and rumors of war, and so you're used to the kind of backwards thinking involved here. So you're just going to defend it anyways. I've accepted that. But I'm here to say that I believe you're wrong, and you should be more interested in preventing conflict rather than using it to justify further conflict and the application of more force, and you should be concerned when a piece of inspiration such as Star Trek falls victim to the same kind of warped thinking.

 

Star Fleet trains their captians to have common sense and teach them to be open minded and teach them to respect other cultures and ppl and ideals ect.. If you see that as currupt then I am sorry for you.

 

Nobody said that open mindedness and respect for other cultures was corrupt. Where did you get that idea?

[Potato]

I'd rather dream of a better tomorrow than give that vision up because someone else says it's unrealistic, or give it up because people think a drama about war is more entertaining. That kind of thinking is unintelligent and stiffles progress, compassion, and immagination.

 

I think you should both be ashamed. Of course you have the right to disagree, but that's not going to stop me.

 

You missed my point, I never said anything about more entertaining. My point, and this is not a defense of the series or the people behind it, is that if you show things like "ends justifying means" and "anything to win" you're shining a light on those things in the here and now. You are making people aware of what's wrong in our society and hopefully people will see that and try to change. That is the point of all Sci-Fi. Additionally, history has shown us that every "utopia" is built on deciet and corruption and it should be our goal to avoid doing that. If we want a better future we have to change what's wrong in the present and if showing the Federation breaking it's own precepts on a fictional TV show helps us do that in the real world then I say bravo and if that's something to be ashamed of then I'd rather be ashamed then not.

[Arktis]

Hmm. Interesting way of looking at it. But if you want to show those kinds of things and "shine a light" on them, then you have a repsonsibility to show why these things are distopian. Star Trek TNG for example did a very good job of this. DS9 didn't, and that's a big nono in my book.

[yudd]

starfleet tries every way to make peace, first by sending the Defiant in a suicide mission to find the founders adn then by trying to collapse the wormhole to prevent war. Both are unsuccesful and the threat of the Dominion wasnt just to the Federation, it was to the whole alpha quadrant, + how do you fight an enemy who hatches soldiers while yours are dying by the thousands and unreplaceable. Starfleet also could have let the Dominion die by killing odo or not allowing him to cure the other founders, yet they choose not to do that. THe dominion didnt want to conquer the quadrant just to rule it, they wanted to impose order, they would have enslaved everyone, including the Romulans and even turned against the Breen and the Cardassian if they won. They dont honor their words withthe solids

[yudd]

for the above reason i think DS9 is the best Startrek series because its not afraid to show that sometimes you have to fight to preserve peace. And Section 31 shouldnt be such an amazement, starfleet has Strafleet Security and Starfleet Intelligence, just like all the other powers, why wouldnt they have an espionaige unit comparable to the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order. The Federation is the Largest and most powerful empire in the Alpha quadrant and 1/3 of Beta quadrant. it only plausible that they mantain that power by strength along with benevelonce. Starfleet says that they dont have warships only ships of exploration but thats just word play, since the ships are well armed. Also, bringing in Romulans to fight the Dominion was a wise choice becaseu it not only saved the UFP from the dominion but the Romulans suffered greatly in the war so they didnt pose a threat even to the UFP postwar even if starfleet had defeated dominion on its own.

[Arktis]

Here's a nice quote:

 

Odo: "If we try to stop those convoys, it may very well start a war."

 

Sisko: "One thing's for sure, we're loosing the peace. Which means a war may be our only... hope."

 

*Dramatic musical climax.*

 

This was ridiculous. The Federation had plenty of opportunities to see what the intentions of the Dominion were before those convoys started flooding in. They should have mined the wormhole way before then. Of course, we're dealing with something completely scripted here, so it doesn't matter. All we are expected to do is nod our heads and anticipate the cool battles we are going to see. After all, if the Federation had actually taken the appropriate defensive steps in advance because of the vast ammount of intelligence availible which pointed to the danger, there wouldn't need to be this horrific war. But we need an excuse for some action, right? Come on, I'm not stupid and this kind of crap insults my intelligence.

[GhostShadow]

Arktis i siad that bc/ : "First off - the conflicting message of DS9.

 

Conflicting not with itself... but with the rest of the series."

 

I disagree. I think that the Entire ST sreies teaches morals and i thought that DS9 excelled in that area.. imho

[GhostShadow]

Here's a nice quote:

 

Odo: "If we try to stop those convoys, it may very well start a war."

 

Sisko: "One thing's for sure, we're loosing the peace. Which means a war may be our only... hope."

 

*Dramatic musical climax.*

 

This was ridiculous. The Federation had plenty of opportunities to see what the intentions of the Dominion were before those convoys started flooding in. They should have mined the wormhole way before then. Of course, we're dealing with something completely scripted here, so it doesn't matter. All we are expected to do is nod our heads and anticipate the cool battles we are going to see. After all, if the Federation had actually taken the appropriate defensive steps in advance because of the vast ammount of intelligence availible which pointed to the danger, there wouldn't need to be this horrific war. But we need an excuse for some action, right? Come on, I'm not stupid and this kind of crap insults my intelligence.

 

OMG you are the one who says that the Federation wants nothing but peace and here you are saying that they should have mined the wormhole earlier. Either way it would have lead to war.

 

IMHO, they did it very well. Dominion never showed all its cards to the Federation so ther was no possible way to expect that.. and WE ( the viewers ) where looking at this from our couches seeing every aspect of the Dominion... The Federation wasnt.. so they did not see the dominion in full picture. AND YES THERE WAS VAST AMMUNTS OF INTEL AVALIBLE....TO US, not the Federation..

 

And to me it sounds like you want a ST where every one gets along all haapy, and laughs, and co-operates.... if you want that then go take a nap and dream.. b/c if you dont like it to bad. I am sorry if you feel it insults your intellegnce but that is a personal problem.

[TFMF]

Also - what difference would mining the enterence to the wormhole have done if they did it earlier - the Federation had no reason to do so before the Dominion came through - the fact is - the Federation invaded there territory

[Tenebrae]

To be fair, I think DS9 showed a lot more common sense than TNG because there was actually the acknowledgement that for an idealists paradise like the Federation to exist, you needed realists like Sloane to be there to make the tough choices that Starfleet men couldn't. Which is of course (aside from the fact Sloane acts like a simpleton) why Bashir shows poor judgement in capturing him.

 

As to the whole "Sisko makes the prophets understand linear time" - well, that's simply a redundant argument. By your own deduction - the prophets exist outside of time as we understand it, hence they know "everything". So even when the occupation was going - they knew Sisko would have that chat with them. If they didn't understand linear existence when they talked to Sisko - it's logical to assume they never could.

 

Of course, the noton that irks me most is that basically that the Prophets were magically letting the Federation win the war ala 7x01 and 7x02. I mean for me that is just such a cop out. If modern day warfare has demnostrated anything, it's that the side with the greater production capacity is the one that wins (that's a generalisation of course). The Dominion seem to have hilariously huge capacity but that doesn't seem to play to their advantage much because the Federation have GOD ON THEIR SIDE!

 

Ace. Shame the cut the thing about Sisko dying and coming back to life.