I just watched the ENT borg episode (Spoilers)

[Nightmare]

The gist is borg survivors of First Contact wake up 100 years later and cause havoc - Archer stops them but they send a signal to the collective in the delta quadrant.

 

So ENT have decided to change TNG timeline - So it now it never was Q's fault that the borg became aware of the federation and earth.

 

Instead they have created a time paradox - Borg go back in time to send a signal to the past borg who eventually come to take over the federation - but cant - so they go back in time to send a signal to the past borg - Ad Infinitum

 

Great, thats all we need.

 

And to make make matters worse both Starfleet and Archer have encountered and interacted with the borg, they also know that the sent a signal and that in 200 years they were coming back.

Normally you would make a log of this kind of thing, maybe a little note on a scrap of paper - anything so that the future generation of Starfleet could prepare for the imminent Borg attack. But no - we get nothing. Instead Picard doesnt have a clue who the borg are. A major error in ST.

 

[TFMF]

Well perhaps - but i think signal being sent taking ages to get there is a better way to introduce the Feds to the Borg than Q's interaction. And i think you will find that Archer/Starfleet never found out that they were actually the Borg - They were just cybernetic lifeforms - they never said anything about them being the Borg...

[Nightmare]

But they surely would have recorded their experiences and prepered themselves for 200 years time - Picards era shuold have been informed about this.

[Evil Enigma]

The way I see it is the borg were coming anyway. Q just gave the Federation advanced warning.

[queenhank]

Okay, for one thing, there was no change of continuity there. It was never established as fact that Q introduced the Borg to humanity, only assumed as such. And we've already seen evidence that the Federation had heard of the Borg before Q sent the Enterprise there. Seven's parents had been studying the Borg because of rumors which had been circulating for years. The El-Aurians were driven from their world by the Borg. The Enterprise's encounter with them was just the first confirmed meeting between Borg and Starfleet.

 

And let us not forget: the Borg may never have recieved that message from the Borg on ENT. It is entirely possible that the signal was too far degraded to even reach its destination.

[Tenebrae]

It's clearly established in TNG that the Borg are around at the end of season 1. They're simply never shown until Q Who... Personally, I think that setting the Borg on the Federation would be a little un-Q.

 

Anyway, this topic was discussed in this thread:

 

Borg Arrogance

[Nightmare]

t was never established as fact that Q introduced the Borg to humanity, only assumed as such. And we've already seen evidence that the Federation had heard of the Borg before Q sent the Enterprise there. Seven's parents had been studying the Borg because of rumors which had been circulating for years. The El-Aurians were driven from their world by the Borg. The Enterprise's encounter with them was just the first confirmed meeting between Borg and Starfleet.

 

And let us not forget: the Borg may never have recieved that message from the Borg on ENT. It is entirely possible that the signal was too far degraded to even reach its destination.

 

Im certain the Borg recieved the message - why would they put so much emphasis on it at the end of the episode.

 

This still does not explain why the federation had never heard of them at all. Archer must have documented the borg incident. They would have had photos and scans. The bottom line is the Federation should have been prepared - they had 200 years - Wolf 359 would not have happened. Archer and Starfleet would have looked at the threat and proceeded to make plan for their arrival. Stronger ships, backup plans etc.

 

Also I know it would have been impossible for the writers of TNG - but if Picard upon seeing the borg for the first time said something like:

 

"Oh my god - Archer was right. They are coming"

 

It would make sense. Instead we are left to make wild theories.

 

[Tenebrae]

200 years is a long time. The incident itself was relatively small and the Borg never demnostrated any ability at faster than warp technology - hence we could conclude that at the time, they might have thought they'd have even longer.

 

Bottom line: 20/20 Hindsight. How could Archer or starfleet possibly know that the Borg would traipse halfway across the galaxy two centuries later? The Borg didn't show any particular interest in hanging around to assimilate people and they certainly didn't come across as the unstoppable, relentless machines they did in Q Who.

[queenhank]

Im certain the Borg recieved the message - why would they put so much emphasis on it at the end of the episode.

 

To give us the idea that perhaps Q did not cause the introduction of the Borg to the Federation. However, it is still possible. I also think the message likely reached them, but since we have not seen in an episode any evidence of that, we cannot say for sure.

 

This still does not explain why the federation had never heard of them at all.

 

"Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the US"

 

Recognize that? Bureaucracy often is the antithesis of knowledge. The information was surely out there, but that doesn't mean anybody actually knew about it. And even if they did, they probably didn't believe it.

 

"Oh my god - Archer was right. They are coming"

 

Well, many times we see in Star Trek that, had someone looked, they would have had all of the necessary information. For example, in "The Naked Now", Dr. Crusher would have known from the start what to do, had she an encyclopedic knowledge of the Starfleet medical database. In the same way, if Picard had an encyclopedic knowledge of early Starfleet alien encounters, he probably would have said something very similar to your suggestion. Even Archer, who had met Cochrane, and who had heard of those "cybernetic beings", barely had a glimmer of recollection about it, when they were right in front of him. Picard was living in an era several hundred years later.

[Mav]

Man no one has nailed this yet? This is simple..

 

In Archers time period, the Borg survivors awaken after being unearthed in the frozen ice. Since they are Borg of late-TNG/early Voyager time period they can easily assimilate things by simple injecting them with the two tendrils into the neck. They start assimilating the few humans in the little base they are at, and hijack/take a small ship.

 

Archer and the Ent NX 01 are told of some kind of biomechnoid's who have stolen this ship, and take pursuit. To make a long story short, they are destroyed/stopped but not before sending a signal, that would take over 200 years to reach it's destination.

 

Now the facts of this episode are, the biomechnoids are never, ever, refered to as "Borg". Since it was just a few archiaologists and scients killed, and only one small spacecraft, Starfleet probably didn't do a huge investigation into and just wrote it off after Archer destroyed them and submitted his report (which again did not refer to them as Borg).

 

200 years later, rough estimate of time, we are in season two of TNG. In "Q Who", Q asks to be a member of the crew blah blah blah which leads him to show Picard why he needs Q's help. Q flings the Enterprise half way across the galaxy and they meet the first Borg cube. the Borg identify themselves at this time. Picard consults with Guinan whose race was damn near obliterated by the Borg. Some crew dies, Picard cannot hope to withstand aganist them, asks for Q's help and back they are in the Alpha Quadrant. Q even notes yet again after this that this was the first time anyone in humanity let alone the Federation had encountered the Borg (note usage of word Borg) and "are not yet ready for what awaits you".

 

Then the whole Borg storyarcs play out as normal.

 

Now, the only subjects of debate are as follows;

 

The Cube they encounter thanks to Q, was not said to be headed to our quadrant. It was never established if they were already on they're way, or if they simply detected the Enterprise D and moved in for the kill/assimilation.

 

First Contact, potentially creates a paradox. With the Borg defeated and the two survivors frozen in snow, they are left to thaw out/be discovered in Archers time, to yet escape and send a 200 year delayed message to who knows, the Borg homeworld for all we know. If they Borg were advancing on the Alpha Quadrant, it was never established if it was because of the signal which may or may not have reached them or if it was because Q tipped the Borg off to us in "Q Who".

 

While it was a nice effort I think Berman and Braga wrote themselves into a corner, either way could be a correct path out but they only did Borg on Enteprise for ratings nothing more. The Q explination was already established and worked flawlessly.

[queenhank]

Exactly my point. The outcome of the ENT episode was never established. We cannot know, without an in-episode (or movie) reference, whether the Borg even recieved that message, who, if anybody, knew about the Borg, or any of it. This is all pure speculation, based on logical assumptions utilizing very limited information.

[Tenebrae]

Also - just why would the message take 200 years? How long do they say it would take in First Contact?

 

Don't subspace messages travel at something like warp 9.999999? Or were they slower in the old days?

[Steveo]

Steam powered sub-space message.

[queenhank]

Subspace messages travel at warp speeds, but not that high. And the subspace radio technology was fairly new at the time of ENT. Even with Borg modifications, it probably isn't going anything above warp 4 or 5. In First Contact, they were modifying much more advanced technology, from the Enterprise E, not 22nd century technology (hell, probably 21st. It's not like they had the Enterprise or anything).

[Tenebrae]

I find your reasoning to be erroneous. What you're essentially saying is that they'd be doing something akin to increasing the speed of light.

 

And given the fact that Archer engaged in real-time communicaton with Starfleet while still dozens of lightyears away from Earth, I'd say you're running counter to common sense. Although admittedly the speed of subspace communication seems to vary in direct correlation to the need for real-time conservations in an episode.

[Nightmare]

Also - just why would the message take 200 years? How long do they say it would take in First Contact?

 

Don't subspace messages travel at something like warp 9.999999? Or were they slower in the old days?

 

Actually im sure Archer said they would arrive in 200 - i.e: it inculded the time it took for the message to reach the DQ and then the journey to the AQ.

 

 

 

[Mav]

Also - just why would the message take 200 years? How long do they say it would take in First Contact?

 

Don't subspace messages travel at something like warp 9.999999? Or were they slower in the old days?

 

Actually im sure Archer said they would arrive in 200 - i.e: it inculded the time it took for the message to reach the DQ and then the journey to the AQ.

 

 

 

Roughly, yes. Probably slightly more than 200 depending on stellar drift, any degredation or loss of the signal over the time, but yea the 200 is the basic estimate he made which as far as the writers go is what works for AQ to DQ.

[queenhank]

I find your reasoning to be erroneous. What you're essentially saying is that they'd be doing something akin to increasing the speed of light.

 

Not at all. Subspace communications are, as I understand them, conventional radio signals sent through the subspace barrier into to dimensional layer known as "subspace", in which would be, theoretically, a curved space which is smaller than our own, and yet has points which correspond to points in our own (rather like a sphere within a sphere). As such, things are able to travel "faster" in subspace than in "regular" space (while actually gaining no speed). This is, as I understand it, also how Warp Drive works. Advancing the technology for subspace radio allows for more accurate transmission through the subspace barrier, which allows communications to arrive even faster.

 

Of course, I suppose it would also be possible that there are more "layers" of subspace than one, and that faster transmission is achieved by sending the signal through a "lower" (and thus "smaller") layer, but, as far as I remember, that has never been stated in Star Trek.

 

So, subspace communications can become "faster" via the same means as Warp Drive. (What those means are is up for speculation, and, in fact, my understanding has never been implicitly stated in an episode or movie, and is only extrapolation. If you insist, I can cite examples in support of my interpretation, but I would hope that they are evident when watching Trek.)

[Tenebrae]

Find me some evidence (it doesn't have to be strictly canon) to suggest the speed of subspace communication has increased and I shall concede the point.

[queenhank]

I thought the borg ENT episode was a fairly good example. A message that would not take very long with borg-modified technology from the Enterprise E, but it would take 200 years with borg-modified technology from the NX-01. I could be mistaken, as I haven't seen First Contact in several months, and am not slated to see it again for a few more (what with my canonical ordering and all), but I think they said in First Contact how long it would take the message to reach the Borg, didn't they? I think they did, and they said it was something less than 200 years. If not, then I am likely making the error of placing my own assumptions upon my memory of the Canon. My assumption being that if Warp Drive uses the same subspace that subspace radio does, and Warp Drive can get faster with better technology, then so can subspace radio.