ENT screwed up the Mirror Universe continuity (Spoilers)

[Nightmare]

It was going fine up until 2/3 of the way through. We had the nice tie up of where the Defiant in TOS went and was interesting to see the ENT crew pilot a constitution class ship - but what on earth happened at the end with Hoshi attempting to take over Starfleet?! A stupid and pointless decision.

 

I fully expected the Defiant to be destroyed so not to mess with ship development in the mirror past, but instead the mirror universe get hold of this ship 100 from the future, keep it - and even worse - by the time Kirk visits them in TOS they seem to have made no major technological advancements. They are still flying around in constitution class ships despite having a 100 year head start.

 

Im left to speculate that Hoshi and the ship somehow was destroyed between ENT and TOS, so she didnt take over the empire and that the Terrans continued as normal. Its not good thing what you need to make such a large speculation to justify a story.

 

Would it have not made more sense for the mirror Archer to stay alive and be the one to usher in a new brutal era for the Empire just like his counterpart ushered in the peaceful United Federation of Planets?

 

In the DVD extras it talks about how they tried to get Shatner to come back for this episode - im certain they could have built a much better episode if they got him involved.

[Tenebrae]

No, Shatner would have invariably made the episode worse because Trek logic says - if you have a guest star, the writing can go to hell. Just look at the finale with Troi and Riker.

 

As to the ship, you could take the Klingon argument. They got warp capable ships off the Herc centuries ago but they're not really interested in progress, just conquest. That's of course apply Trek logic.

[queenhank]

Definitely. Once the Terran Empire has technology which can beat everyone else, they wouldn't have any desire to advance their tech further. Which is probably part of what leads to their downfall a few centuries later. Spock makes them all peacable, and all their technology is a hundred years behind the times.

[Guest c4evap]

Would it have not made more sense for the mirror Archer to stay alive and be the one to usher in a new brutal era for the Empire just like his counterpart ushered in the peaceful United Federation of Planets?

 

Yes! More sense indeed. Ah well...I always said it should have been a 3 parter so they could explain what happened with Hoshi and the ship.

 

c4 B)

[Mav]

No, Shatner would have invariably made the episode worse because Trek logic says - if you have a guest star, the writing can go to hell. Just look at the finale with Troi and Riker.

 

Well, there's always "Relics" from TNG. A little corney in a couple scenes but overrall it was one of the best guest star episodes, ever.

 

As for Hoshi, it makes sense when you think about it. In the MU, other than TOS, we only see it in DS9 right. In the DS9-era MU alot of the powerful people are, female characters. MU Kira, MU Jennifer (a voice of reason to the pre-dead MU Sisko). Other than the Klingons having a powerful hand in the Alliance in the MU, it seems to be a rather female dominate place. I mean while MU Bashir is a bad ass unlike regular Bashir, he is still on a more tame level than say MU Kira.

 

Hoshi taking over and controlling the Empire works. She establishes the first role of Empress which no doubtably was passed onto others after her death (male and female obviously but more importantly female).

 

Or maybe not, who knows for sure. Thats just what I always read into it all, it just seemed to really have the strong woman vibe to it all in the MU.

[Guest c4evap]

No, Shatner would have invariably made the episode worse because Trek logic says - if you have a guest star, the writing can go to hell. Just look at the finale with Troi and Riker.

 

Well, there's always "Relics" from TNG. A little corney in a couple scenes but overrall it was one of the best guest star episodes, ever.

 

One of the best is right! The scene with Scotty on the holodeck (TOS) Enterprise drinking with Picard is priceless.

 

As for Hoshi, it makes sense when you think about it. In the MU, other than TOS, we only see it in DS9 right. In the DS9-era MU alot of the powerful people are, female characters. MU Kira, MU Jennifer (a voice of reason to the pre-dead MU Sisko). Other than the Klingons having a powerful hand in the Alliance in the MU, it seems to be a rather female dominate place. I mean while MU Bashir is a bad ass unlike regular Bashir, he is still on a more tame level than say MU Kira.

 

Hoshi taking over and controlling the Empire works. She establishes the first role of Empress which no doubtably was passed onto others after her death (male and female obviously but more importantly female).

 

Or maybe not, who knows for sure. Thats just what I always read into it all, it just seemed to really have the strong woman vibe to it all in the MU.

 

Well, that explains (pretty much) the whole Hoshi thingy...but if they had the ship why didn't they progress (technology wise) in the 100 years leading up to the TOS MU ep?

 

c4 :thinking:

[Mav]

Any number of reasons. Literally. Think about it, in TOS, TNG, etc any Trek really, whats the most common thing? Situational episodes. Something random happens or they discover something random. A spatial anomaly or a probe from an ancient civilization. Which in most cases ends up with the crew endangered some how and the ship in danger.

 

I guess we can just assume something happened to the ship and was forced to be abandoned thus denying its technology from being used. Coulda been anything from a blackhole to hell, let's throw in the Crystalline Entity for some fun, it was rarely used ;o

[Guest c4evap]

Any number of reasons. Literally. Think about it, in TOS, TNG, etc any Trek really, whats the most common thing? Situational episodes. Something random happens or they discover something random. A spatial anomaly or a probe from an ancient civilization. Which in most cases ends up with the crew endangered some how and the ship in danger.

 

I guess we can just assume something happened to the ship and was forced to be abandoned thus denying its technology from being used. Coulda been anything from a blackhole to hell, let's throw in the Crystalline Entity for some fun, it was rarely used ;o

 

I'm sure that's what we're all thinking. I just wish they'd done a third Enterprise MU EP and showed us. A wrap up would have been welcome.

 

c4 B)

[Tenebrae]

The mirror universe - or as it eventually became, the lesbian universe.

 

I remember seeing a series of books about it in the library once. The blurb pretty much screamed "Adolescent boys, here is suggestive material about star trek babes who like other star trek babes!"

[Mav]

The mirror universe - or as it eventually became, the lesbian universe.

 

I remember seeing a series of books about it in the library once. The blurb pretty much screamed "Adolescent boys, here is suggestive material about star trek babes who like other star trek babes!"

 

Hmm

 

That wouldn't really work for TOS and TNG. I just can't picture Troi and Beverly together, they're so old...Now compared to like, ENT or Voy, yea that's obvious. Hell if that was a real book like that you know they did some kind of time travel that allowed Seven of Nine to pop onto the Enterprise NX01's bridge naked with no clothes while T'Pol was on watch and yea I need to stop here cause thats just too much mental imagery >_<

[Tenebrae]

I imagine the scene would have tissue thin reasons for any girl touching:

 

"To verify your story," T'Pol said. "I will have to carry out a THOROUGH examination. Unfortunately, fluxtuactions in a near by pulsar are causing intereference with our instruments. I shall have to examine you BY HAND."

[Guest c4evap]

Geez...here we go again

 

Boyz will be boyz

 

What is it with you guys and lesbians?

 

c4 ;)

[Tenebrae]

Double the breasts, none of the work.

 

Besides, don't blame me. Blame the mirror universe.

[queenhank]

Double the breasts, none of the work.

 

And also no men allowed :p

[Tenebrae]

Not evening watching?

 

Purely research for my writing, you understand.

[MrDad]

It was going fine up until 2/3 of the way through. We had the nice tie up of where the Defiant in TOS went and was interesting to see the ENT crew pilot a constitution class ship - but what on earth happened at the end with Hoshi attempting to take over Starfleet?! A stupid and pointless decision.

 

Not at all. In her world, power is the only worthy goal. In her hands was a tool of unimaginable destructive force capable of allowing her to take whatever she wanted. Why should she settle for less than ultimate power?

 

I fully expected the Defiant to be destroyed so not to mess with ship development in the mirror past' date=' but instead the mirror universe get hold of this ship 100 from the future, keep it - [b']and even worse[/b] - by the time Kirk visits them in TOS they seem to have made no major technological advancements. They are still flying around in constitution class ships despite having a 100 year head start.

 

In the MU, Earth's empire had appropriated Vulcan technology when Cochrane killed the Vulcans and seized their ship. The MU Enterprise gave no sign of having any of the more advanced tech that the Vulcan ships had, like tractor beams for example. It was no more advanced than the normal Enterprise that Earth was forced to develop on it's own. This would indicate that even given a head start, they might have difficulties reverse engineering the Defiant, which would have been much more complicated by several magnitudes.

 

Im left to speculate that Hoshi and the ship somehow was destroyed between ENT and TOS' date=' so she didnt take over the empire and that the Terrans continued as normal. Its not good thing what you need to make such a large speculation to justify a story.[/quote']

 

Perhaps it was destroyed or so heavily damaged in Hoshi's coup attempt that it was of little use and had nothing worth salvaging. After all, it was a ship they were unfamiliar with, they were a skeleton crew compared to it's normal complement, they may not have finished reinstalling the items removed by the Tholians, and it was only one ship against the entire Empire.

 

Would it have not made more sense for the mirror Archer to stay alive and be the one to usher in a new brutal era for the Empire just like his counterpart ushered in the peaceful United Federation of Planets?

 

The mirror Archer didn't seem to be particularly brutal or devious. He didn't impress me as the type to rise to the top of an empire of cutthroats.

 

In the DVD extras it talks about how they tried to get Shatner to come back for this episode - im certain they could have built a much better episode if they got him involved.

 

It would have seemed like a cheap stunt to me.

[bbbb]

If you think about it, bad people don't grow or develop into better people, they are only capable of doing bad things. That's why there were no technological developments in the Mirror Universe, everything they had was stolen or pirated from other people. The Vulcans, Suliban, Klingons, Gorn, Good universe Federation types, they mean nothing to the Terran Empire. They are simply pawns and people to be exploited. Remember, bad people don't innovate, they simply steal innovation from those who are innovative, in this case the United Federation of Planets. Peacemakers are more likely to build better technology than conquerors, who just pillage and take what they want (their brains aren't advanced enough to know anything other than being bad).

 

As for the mirror Archer, he was a conqueror, and a drunk for that matter. Considering what the warp core did to the mirror Tucker, I don't think Terran Empire engineers were any good at their job. People don't do too well with a gun at their head or a knife at their neck.

[Tenebrae]

You're essentially saying bad people are stupid or incompetent.

 

Well, history might just prove you wrong on that front. I don't think anyone can say that the Nazi or Soviet governments were nice or good people but both of them were able to produce considerable progress in various fields.

 

Trek simply likes to keep things pretty black and white.

[queenhank]

See, they had competition. A militaristic society has no need for innovation when they've already won. They beat the Vulcans, took their technology, done. No need to improve it. It works already. Then, say, the Suliban come along. Conquer them, and voila! New technology, no need for actual improvements. But, if they came up against, say, the Borg, who have the numbers and technology to keep the Empire at bay (at the very least), then there would be an arms race. You'd have sudden need for scientists and engineers in the Empire, and they would be creating newer and better technologies. Once they conquer the Borg? No more improvements necessary, unless someone even bigger comes along.

[MrDad]

If you think about it, bad people don't grow or develop into better people, they are only capable of doing bad things. That's why there were no technological developments in the Mirror Universe, everything they had was stolen or pirated from other people. The Vulcans, Suliban, Klingons, Gorn, Good universe Federation types, they mean nothing to the Terran Empire. They are simply pawns and people to be exploited. Remember, bad people don't innovate, they simply steal innovation from those who are innovative, in this case the United Federation of Planets. Peacemakers are more likely to build better technology than conquerors, who just pillage and take what they want (their brains aren't advanced enough to know anything other than being bad).

 

As for the mirror Archer, he was a conqueror, and a drunk for that matter. Considering what the warp core did to the mirror Tucker, I don't think Terran Empire engineers were any good at their job. People don't do too well with a gun at their head or a knife at their neck.

You have a very cynical opinion of people. Bad people can and do grow and develop into better people. There brains are the same as anyone else's. it's the thoughts, beliefs and attitudes that differ and those can be changed. As far as bad people being incapable of innovation, don't forget the Nazis were very technologically innovative. They developed the Heinkel He 178 V1, the world's first jet aircraft and the Messerschmitt ME 262, the world's first jet fighter in active service. They had tested the Horten HO 229 flying wing fighter, the world's first stealth aircraft, and were working on the Horten Ho XVIII, a heavy bomber prototype with the same stealth characteristics, capable of a transatlantic round trip. Innovation is more difficult in a totalitarian society, not impossible.