Nightmare Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 [Possible Enterprise Spoilers] I Just finished watching all 4 seasons on ENT yesterday (Many many thanks to niteshdw). I watched 1 or 2 episodes a day and although watching seasons 1 and 2 seemed like a chore seasons 3 and especially 4 were great. The sheer quality of episodes in 4 were so good. I noticed there were many 2 or 3 parters which is odd for ST, but they were all great and fresh. Vulcans, Augments, Klingons, etc. Its a crying shame that ENT was cancelled just when they got Coto on the job writing great shows. He would have made ENT great in season 5 6 and 7 just like DS9 was. I mean DS9 didnt really get interesting until the start of season 4 also but they let them run with it. There was so much to explore - Especially the Romulan arc they were going to develop. Ive been dying to see more Romulans in ST for a long time. Please - we have had enough of the Klingons. Then there was Section 31 and who knows what else. Personally I cant believe Brannon and Braga wrote the "last" show, which in itself was an abomination. After all the great work Coto did in S4 they basically give him the finger and take a dump on the entire season and the fans. We can only hope that when ST returns, so will Coto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 As I've said before - the notion it should take 3-4 years for a show to get good is pretty much something only Trek could get away with and ultimately it was the foolhardy and plain bad helmsmanship of Berman that meant ENT was always going to be fighting the odds - DS9 and VOY both still had the beneficial of TNG to attract viewers, while ENT had people who were bored of what Trek had become under DS9 and VOY. I definitely agree with your assessment of seasons 1-2, just so dull... 3 was a bit patchy but 4 had a few good miniarcs. Really, if they'd started off with the miniarcs, the show might still be going. The quality of writing definitely improved and the concepts etc. were far more interesting and it was essentially a lot better for them to be defending Starfleet's interests than bumping into another worthless race we've never heard of and will never hear of again. The Vulcan arc was quite nice, although it had pacing problems. The hilarity is that the Romulans must obviously have been trying reunification for centuries and still haven't managed it. To be honest, Berman and Braga writing the widely condemned final episode was pretty fitting. They'd already pissed all over the franchise for the better part of a decade, so why not give the fans a final gesture of contempt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 Exactly, Im my honest opinion I dont like watching the first 1 or 2 season of ANY Trek show. All the 5 shows seemed to start with 'alien of the week' - Which is alright but gets boring fast - then progress into something more interesting such as the Borg/Dominion/Xindi arcs. Does Braga show up to conventions anymore? --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 He'll presumably have a lot of spare time after Threshold didn't even make it to... 11 episodes? Personally, I think that Seasons 1-2 of TNG were ok, although 1 did contain some hit and miss. DS9 had a deadly dull season 1 that seemed to revolve exclusively around the crew or the station getting taken over... season 2 was OK but really, it was a bit strange - they're sitting next to the wormhole and so many of the episodes took place in the AQ, wasted potential? Of course, things picked up with The Jem'Hadar... although the foreshadowing for it could really have done with some more work. VOY - well, I won't presume to speak for anyone else but I think it had a very weak first two... ENT - I suppose Broken Bow was ok and there were a few good episodes in there but most of it was just so bland. It was almost as if you could have changed the actors at any time and it wouldn't have made any difference. Of course, the ENT mini-arcs were all pretty good. The Xindi thing... a bit weak for my tastes. They were such a horrible bunch of bad guys, I mean a couple of overly camp hairdressers would have seemed a more palpable threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Its a crying shame that ENT was cancelled just when they got Coto on the job writing great shows. He would have made ENT great in season 5 6 and 7 just like DS9 was. I mean DS9 didnt really get interesting until the start of season 4 also but they let them run with it. I suggest you rewatch DS9 Seasons 2 and 3. There are a LOT of great "TNG-style" stand-alone episodes which are great science fiction. As well as early hints about the Dominion & the mirror universe episodes. Plus, I always liked the 3-parter where Bajor invades & takes over the DS9 station. Here's the breakdown by showrunner: TOS years 1-2 = Gene L. Coon (great/good) TOS year 3 = Freiberger (crap) TNG years 1-2 = Gene Roddenberry (good to crap) TNG years 3-7 = Rick Berman (great to good) DS9 years 1-7 = Ron Moore (good to great) VOY years 1-2 = Jeri Taylor (crap) VOY years 3-7 = Brannan Braga (crap) ENT years 1-3 = Brannan Braga (crap) ENT year 4 = Manny Coto (great) As you can see, the showrunner can have a LOT of influence on how the final product turns out. By the way, Ron Moore is now working on Battlestar Galactica & Manny Coto is on Surface. The other people, the ones that created crap, are now unemployed. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 Its good to see Manny is working. On the DVD extras he seemed like a really nice genuine guy. Braga however came across as a bit stuck up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenhank Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Personally, I have rather enjoyed the first few seasons of each show. While I didn't at first like the pre-Borg Voyager, upon re-watching it, I have grown to like the early episodes much more than the later ones. Kes, in particular, has become a favorite character of mine. Now, the first two seasons of ENT weren't anything like what we all expected when they announced a "prequel Trek", while season 4 most definitely was. Knowing that, I have to say that the first two seasons really were my favorite. The sense of exploration and adventure that was there is something we haven't seen in Trek since "The Final Frontier". Now, season 4 was definitely very good, but for a whole slew of other reasons. Season 3, while intriguing to watch, just doesn't feel very Star Trek to me. It's a season-long movie, essentially, and the Nazi ending felt so much like that Voyager episode where the Hirogen take over the ship as to make it wholly laughable. Ah, well. People never agree with me, anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 ENT writer on Surface, eh? I have to say - I like the cut of his jib. Just what is it with Trek and Nazis? Personally, I think that there was a sense of exploration in TNG - things like "Tin Man" managed to capture it, however fleetingly... but they never walked on the surface of some long dead world and managed to capture a sense of awe or mystery that B5 and Farscape did a few times, quite successfully. That's probably a function of spending about 90% of the time walking around the sterile, carpeted floors of the ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrimmer Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Or they have a line similar to "I belive in time we shall have quite a fine crew." Exactly, Im my honest opinion I dont like watching the first 1 or 2 season of ANY Trek show. All the 5 shows seemed to start with 'alien of the week' - Which is alright but gets boring fast - then progress into something more interesting such as the Borg/Dominion/Xindi arcs. Does Braga show up to conventions anymore? --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mav Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Some of Coto's episodes were brilliant while others were just..bad The Big Show (wrestler) as an Orion Slave Trader?...I hope that was one of B&B's backburner ideas they tossed in cause I just can't see Coto seriously doing that. The transporter episode and Shran stuff was brilliant. Though bringing back a CGI Gorn was crap...as was using Brent Spiner in a desperate attempt at a ratings boost not just in one episode but a three episode story arc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Typically when you see a big name star on Trek, it's the idea of the Network trying to boost ratings. So I wouldn't blame Coto... he probably fought the idea tooth-n-nail, but since he's just an employee of the Big UPN Suits, he lost. Sometimes the Suits have a good idea. Like introducing Worf to DS9. But most of the time, Suits are just stupid: TNT: "Hey, let's add wrestling ring to Babylon: Crusade. Oh, and in one episode the captain will rape the sexy female crewmember & be court-martialed." JMS: "Um yeah. No thanks. I quit." TNT: "But... but... wrestling is cool. And rape is 'high-concept'." JMS( walking out the door): "No way. Now how. No sir. See ya." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted January 28, 2006 Author Share Posted January 28, 2006 Some of Coto's episodes were brilliant while others were just..bad The Big Show (wrestler) as an Orion Slave Trader?...I hope that was one of B&B's backburner ideas they tossed in cause I just can't see Coto seriously doing that. The transporter episode and Shran stuff was brilliant. Though bringing back a CGI Gorn was crap...as was using Brent Spiner in a desperate attempt at a ratings boost not just in one episode but a three episode story arc... But you must admit the Augments episode was great. Any I loved how we get to see the origins of Data - In a sense his very conception at the end of the episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly12 Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Well my oppinion on ENT... I think it is a great shame to have it end as the last Season was excellent with out a doubt. I've got to admit tho, Season three was good but it think it's right to say it never met with the idea of Star Trek being Exploration. With that said... Season 1 and 2 were fairly crap tho, the odd episode was fun but i think Rene Aburjonois when guest starring said it best... saying something along the lines of "we did this story in Season 3".... which is completely true, ENT just went over old ground and it made to many enermies with the same plot 'there friendly till Archer works out there deep dark secret and all is not what it seems'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabrood Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Am I the only one thinking that season 4 was partially pretty boring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mav Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 But you must admit the Augments episode was great. Any I loved how we get to see the origins of Data - In a sense his very conception at the end of the episode. Nah, not really. I can see how the early life of the Augments was something to view, it helps understand Khan later down the road but other than that it was awful. Especially Data's great great grandfather whom at the very end decided to give up genetics for cybernetics? COME ON........How cheesey was that? It was a ratings plow by Paramount to help give season 4 a small nitrous oxide-like boost in ratings before the series was over. Ironically this was early in the season, but alas that didn't stop them from bringing at really badly aging Riker and Troi to play themselves from almost twenty years ago ;\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenhank Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Great great grandfather? How much time do you think passes between ENT and TNG? Given Noonien Soong's lifespan (and name...jeez), I would guess he was Arik Soong's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mav Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Well, Enterprise is well over 200 years prior to the first episode of TNG. Even if we assume Noonian's father lived a long human life (which by the time of DS9/Voyager was well past 120) it'd still be missing a generation. Sure it's plausible that the Soong we see in Enterprise (I forget his first name) lived a really long time, then had his son whom also lived a really long time whom then became the father of Noonian Soong. But that's where viewer interpretation comes into play. Granted since Noonian lived a pretty isolated live, I doubt he ever ran into much trouble. We can't say for sure the other Soongs didn't. With all the random spatial anonmallies and strange alien races that always f'up ships or far away colonies anything could happen. Plus the original Soong in Enterprise was in jail at the end if I recall, so we are left to assume he maybe gets out at some point? Or at the very least procreates with some female he meets while there. And either way you look at it, it was a cheap ploy for the original Soong to be there. Ratings aside, he's working on genetics right. So he couldn't get that perfect, and "realizes" it, thus sparking his interested in cybernetics. Flash ahead two shows (if you ever watched them in order which I'm sure future generations of Trek fans will) and you see Data with his whole backstory involving Noonian Soong. As a viewer, I'd be expecting Data to uncover some holomessage saying something along the lines of "Well Data, I couldn't create perfect genetic humans so I had to settle for you. Hopefully when I am finished there won't be spare parts laying around" even without emotion it is still kinda cheesey to go from creating the perfect human to just building a machine. Maybe if like Soong had a brother (twin maybe, or just a regular sibling) and one was interested in genetics while the other cybernetics they could have had the Enterprise Soong fail and just live out his life in prison while the other one, continues his work and passes it down generation to generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenhank Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Okay, let's say the average human lifespan in ENT is, say, 120 years. Then, of course, in TOS era it would go up a bit, maybe to 130-135. By TNG, it's probably somewhere around 140-150. Arik Soong, when we last saw him in 2154, was probably in his 40s. Maybe 50s. So, let's assume then that he lives to be about 125. That puts him well into the TOS era when he dies, so his son, Noonien, if he were born toward the end of Arik's life (likely, given his jail-time) would have been born around 2200. So, let's say it takes him 120 years or so before he makes Data. That puts Data's creation around 2320. Now, we know he was in Starfleet for (I'm fairly sure, please do correct me if I'm wrong) 30 years in TNG, which would put Data's age as of TNG in the 30s or 40s. Now, we know TNG takes place in the 2360s and thereabouts, which, I would say, adds up rather well. Now, sure, maybe Arik had a kid at 60, and that kid was one of Noonien's parents, and also possible that they had kids as early as possible, and there were 5 generations between Arik and Data, but my point isn't that I can prove Arik is Data's "grandfather", but rather that it is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 In Encounter At Farpoint, DeForest Kelly is established to be 137 and Soong DOES look considerably more worn than Admiral McCoy. Of course, they never really make any other references to human longevity - so they could be abberations or the norm, we'll never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenhank Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Well, if you want another example, look at Captain Picard. Not sure how old he is, but I do know he's been a Captain for several decades, and yet he can still run around with the best of 'em. He'll probably live another 90 or so years if given the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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