Tenebrae Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 Captain Randsom IMO would have been a far more interesting story to follow. I mean, basically Voyager might as well have been a hotel in space compared to the Equinox. Yet Voyager high horsed it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 oh - well fav captain other than the 5 series captains would be.....hmm...maybe Captain Randsom - he had the right idea about dealing with the Delta Quadrent... Killing innocent creatures? Is that how you'd deal with the Delta Quad? WOWSERS! c4 :stare: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Captain Randsom IMO would have been a far more interesting story to follow. I mean, basically Voyager might as well have been a hotel in space compared to the Equinox. Yet Voyager high horsed it again. That's the Star Trek way...NOT killing innocent creatures. Seems some people are forgetting that on this forum. Very strange!?! c4 :stare: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 SNIPPET: Well' date=' I'm sorry to have to say this, but imo Janeway was the worst captain ever.[/quote'] Yes, yes, yes...we ALL know how you feel (ad nauseum). Thank you very much. You hate Janeway. Ever hear of the phrase - "beating a dead horse"? Can you move on now? Geez... c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbb Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 SNIPPET: Janeway wasn't a really strong captain; I never felt like Kate Mulgrew was the right woman for the part. WTF show were you watching? Not strong? Not right for the part? c4 :stare: <-- this is a stare. I'm staring cause I can't believe what you said! I believe there are many people who would say Janeway was a bad ST captain. I also think you can help by explaining WHY Janeway was such a great captain, WHY she was better than Kirk or Picard. I've said my opinion for and against Janeway (Mulgrew was a great choice for the part, very good acting) and now we've seen other arguments against Janeway. Perhaps you'd like to explain WHY she was better than the rest? As for my ranking of the Starfleet Captains, mine goes as follows: 1. Picard 2. Kirk 3. Archer 4. Tie between Sisko and Janeway For number 4 I could not place Sisko above Janeway. He lacked the moral fibre that makes a good Starfleet Captain. Would you take a raging lunatic seriously if he were your captain? Janeway wasn't much better. She required constant mentoring by Chakotay and lacked command presence. It was very easy to grill Ransom but she was not perfect herself. That's what people forget about her. Sometimes I think people liked her only because she was the first female lead captain on a Star Trek series. Gender cannot be the determining factor in deciding who was a good Star Trek Captain. I'm sure people felt Gene would have loved that aspect of Voyager but that was back when women were treated as second class citizens. Times have changed. Going back to Star Trek, Kirk had his quirks but all in all he was an energetic captain with very defined morals. Kirk had a natural command presence and very easily made the hard decisions. Archer's morals were made plainly evident in season 3 so I'll skip the Archer critique. Picard in my opinion was the best of the best mainly because of his STRONG moral fibre. He didn't wage vendettas or blood feuds with officers who disagreed with him. He easily commanded his ship and defended the morals and values of Starfleet. This put his career at jeopardy with superiors who didn't like his moral approach to command (ie Necheyev) but nevertheless he persevered in situations which likely would have had him kicked out of Starfleet. Unfortunately I did notice a mood change in Picard in the later movies (STVIII, IX, and X). I attribute this to an attempt over the years to make him more appealing to violence-loving viewers. Things changed a lot since TNG and Picard's changes were small but noticeable. He was a little weird in season 1 and 2. Nevertheless I think he was the best Star Trek Captain due to his high moral standards, his good understanding of the world around him and his good people skills. Since when did he scream at his fellow officers or put them behind bars for disagreeing with him? He would not have gotten angry at Eddington and Ransom for doing what they believed in, he would have sympathized with them and brought them to justice, not seek vengeance like Sisko and Janeway. If you recall he was very sympathetic to Capt Maxwell of the Phoenix. Picard knew how to control himself. He commanded the respect of his crew and of Starfleet. Picard is my number one choice for best Starfleet Captain followed by Kirk in a close second place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 SNIPPET [part II]: :p SNIPPET: Janeway wasn't a really strong captain; I never felt like Kate Mulgrew was the right woman for the part. WTF show were you watching? Not strong? Not right for the part? c4 :stare: <-- this is a stare. I'm staring cause I can't believe what you said! I believe there are many people who would say Janeway was a bad ST captain. I also think you can help by explaining WHY Janeway was such a great captain, WHY she was better than Kirk or Picard. I've said my opinion for and against Janeway (Mulgrew was a great choice for the part, very good acting) and now we've seen other arguments against Janeway. Perhaps you'd like to explain WHY she was better than the rest? I've already explained in many other threads my reasons for being so fond of Janeway, so I'm not going to get into it here...especially since my reply was not directed at you (no offense meant). Anywho, my reply speaks for itself. I will say this however...I believe many don't like Janeway simply because she is a woman. I've seen more nasty things said about Janeway (and Mulgrew as well) on this forum than any other Star Trek captain. Heck, even Captain Ransom (of the USS Equinox) gets higher marks from some people and he was an outright murderer. I don't hate any of the Star Trek characters...although I do like some more than others. I would never think of saying anything nasty about any of them. Sadly this is not true of many people on this forum. c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 I think some people just have a lot of negative feeling toward the whole Voyager thing and as Janeway was captain and got a lot of screen time, she becomes the focus of their disdain for the series as a whole... which is understandable because it's a lot easier to identify an onscreen personality with feelings than someone as shadowy as a writer/director/producer. Personally, Janeway being a woman didn't directly impact my attitude toward her but I think that it did change the way they wrote her character. I always felt that they just tried too hard with Janeway, to the point where they just made her good at everything. How many times has something come up and Janeway will bounce out of the captain's chair to go and get her hands dirty? Hell, I can think of dozens of occasions when she's turned her hand to the likes of fields as disparate as exobiology, seven flavours of engineering, temporal mechanics etc. She'd give Data a run for her money. If she'd been a man - I don't think they'd have felt it necessary to over-labour the point but then of course, they go through plenty of phases where her gender was irrelevant... but then that's more Trek really, blind to gender, ethnicity, colour, creed and so on. One thing you have to give Janeway credit for, she and her ship have managed to hog more topics than every other captain put together. At the end of the day, one can epouse a lot of views but you mention Janeway and you're going to have people jumping in all over the place. And c4evap, it's not unreasonable to expect that your strong positive feelings about Janeway are countered by people who have equally strong negative feelings about her and as she's a fictional character, I'm fairly sure that regardless of what they say she'll be safe and sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 oh - well fav captain other than the 5 series captains would be.....hmm...maybe Captain Randsom - he had the right idea about dealing with the Delta Quadrent... Killing innocent creatures? Is that how you'd deal with the Delta Quad? WOWSERS! c4 :stare: well...yes killing is wrong - but i wasn't just talking about that - i mean Janeway didn't kill anything in that way but the bit i said before about her actions in Prime Factors - THAT WAS REDICULOUS! - Randsom would have deffinetly accepted the technology even if it was against the prime directive. And just because it was against the prime directive dosn't mean it wasn't the 'star trek' way - i mean come on! - they were stranded in the Delta Quad - the best thing you can do is get home and that dosn't mean tying yourself down to some rules. The way the odds go - Janeway shouldn't have been able to get her crew home - Randsom had FAR better odds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Well, I'd say Janeway, at times, didn't go far enough, but Ransom went too far... Now which one is worse, that's up to you to decide... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steveo Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 You have to remember, Randsom had it bad. He had to get, what was left of his crew, home. I would do the same and more in that situation. Desperate times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Yeah - Randsom had a 'weaker' class of ship with less crew - things were more desperate for him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyran Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Picard is my choice kirk anyone you like afterwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Yes - their situations are quite radically different. Ransom was basically screwed from day one - but he was willing to do what it took to get his crew home. Versus Janeway who had it all but was happy to stop by every interesting rock on the way home but has 10,000 of lightyears shortcuts fall in her lap. So maybe Ransom threw his morals out the window... but his plight was more realistic than Voyagers, so he couldn't keep his morals squeaky clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyran Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 OOPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Okay, so here's a potential 'real-life' situation: You just got mugged on the street and they seriously beat you too, you're hurting, but you're hungry and want to eat. Would you kill someone else, another intelligent human, whom you know to be completely innocent, someone not unlike yourself, just so you can take their money for food. Would the food taste good? Would you do it again? And again? And again? There are allways other options, maybe not as 'easy', but there allways are! Remember he killed those innocent aliens, just to get home faster... That was the only effect as far as I can remember... They (the aliens) didn't have anything to do with the 'original despair' of the crew... imo, that makes him and his crew, just as bad as the others (who attacked them when they had only just arrived in the delta quadrant, and even that situation was partly Ransoms own fault), and they knew it too, since they desperately tried to hide what they did and had no intention whatsoever of 'coming clean' once they reached the alpha quadrant. They wanted to be welcomed home like they didn't do anything wrong, like big heroes: "look where we came from", "how great we are",.... They didn't mug people and left them to fetch for themselves (like Archer, who's other motives were a lot better to: annihilation of your entire world and nearly your entire species <-> loss of one single ship and crew for Ransom), they killed them, in cold blood, premeditated! And they tried to comfort themselves with the meaningless lines: "we had no other choice", of course they did!!! They just chose the 'easy' way out. Even current law specifies that Ransom was wrong and in some parts of the current US, the entire crew would be up for the death penalty!! And you say you would do the same??? Now, I'm no pacifist or anything like that, but killing innocents that have nothing to do with your situation and are not even in your way or anything like that, that's just wrong!! No excuse for that! Heck, imo it's even worse than what those Muslim suicide bombers do. I guess this means you guys have some form of sympathy for the 9/11 hijackers? In their eyes they did exactly the same thing as Ransom did in his eyes! You do realise that, don't you? Anyway, this really isn't the topic for this and thus this discussion shouldn't be continued here, maybe a new topic? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steveo Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 No, that plight is completely different - Randsom was effectively signing the death warrants of his own crew if he didn't act. Sentence his crew to death vs. Killing a different species. Terrorists, on the other hand, aren't in quite the same situation, making your comparison rather specious. On face value with the facts you provide the comparison is sound, however, as I have pointed out, Randsom would have been killing his own crew had he not acted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Your analogy is irrelevant, bordering on spurious. Ransom killing the alien lifeforms wasn't the same as murder or terrorism. Faced with a choice between knocking off a few aliens or condeming his crew to death, he made the right choice. Luckily he had Janeway there to preach to him from her infinitely high pulpit. The plight of Voyager vs. Equinox is basically like trying to compare a cruise around the Caribean in a luxury liner with a trip through the bad parts of South America on a moped. My point is - Ransom didn't choose his circumstances, they scrapped along through the Delta Quadrant. They're running out of supplies, still decades from home, no support, a lame ship etc. and then they get this one chance at getting home. That or probably die in the middle of nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 SNIPPET: And c4evap' date=' it's not unreasonable to expect that your strong positive feelings about Janeway are countered by people who have equally strong negative feelings about her and as she's a fictional character, I'm fairly sure that regardless of what they say she'll be safe and sound.[/quote'] 1. You make some interesting points. 2. Yes, I do have strong positive feelings about Janeway. This is in reply to all the comments about Ransom: Killing an innocent creature - for whatever reason - is wrong, wrong, wrong. Ransom and his crew were members of Star Fleet Command. They took an oath. He knew the risks as did every single member of his crew. Risk IS their business. He was stranded in the Delta Quad - tough. It was a sh!tty situation to be in for sure...but that's the breaks! As for the people here who said they would do the same thing...shame on you. That's NOT the Star Trek way. I'm just glad I'm not stuck in the Delta quad with anyone of that moral fiber. And please don't remind me that it's only a TV show. I know that. It's the ideology we are discussing here. c4 :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 I'll agree that part of my analogy was a bit crude, but in the heart of the matter, it is the same. I did say, in the eyes of those terrorists, not in your/our eyes. It's all a matter of perspective.... But it's clear that I'm definately with c4 on the matter! EDIT: I was talking 'bout Ransom btw. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steveo Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 I think it did make for an interesting point - even Starfleet officers are breakable, and I like that. There's something not quite right about humans who are always so good, and Randsom + crew showed us that humanity hasn't changed beyond all regognition. He was wrong to kill, but I do think those episodes showed us an all too familiar side of humainty hasn't been eliminated, even in the 24th century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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