The Federation Economy

[Steveo]

I'm guessing, as mentioned, there is some sort of allowance for each person. You don't get pais, per se, but you don't have the resources of the entire federation at individual control.

[Tenebrae]

I think the simple answer jounin is that no one really sat down and thought "Hmm, we've pretty much established that the Federation has eliminated money but it's clear that a lot of other socieities do - how can these two things be reconcilled."

 

The answer is that there are a lot of holes that we sit back and let queenhank sew shut.

[Wazer]

Unfortunately Gene Rodenbery died before TNG and then DS9 especially explored the nature of the Federation economy. I have a feeling he had a consistent view of how things worked ( like everythiing else ) that wasn't made clear and started to become important on DS9 with a Ferregi character. The later writers had no one to ask is this right? Is this how you see the economy working. He obviously had a say on the current utopian view seen in "The Neutral Zone" where Picard states that there is no need for money but no details are provided. :(

[vystral]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the scene in ST: First Contact with Captain and Picard and Lily patrolling the Enterprise for Borg...

[Palantas]

And as to Exterus' question about how the Federation gets all their duterium (what is used in the matter/antimatter engine): they mine it from Federation worlds' date=' thus making it free.[/quote']

 

I think that's an oversimplification. Just because because duterium is harvested from a Federation system doesn't make it "free." Eliminating money doesn't suddenly make everything free and your resources unlimited.

[queenhank]

It doesn't make them unlimited, but it does make them free. The Federation mines the duterium, and then uses it for matter/antimatter engines, which generate far more energy than was used to mine it in the first place. The Federation is on a surplus of energy. Having the ability to convert energy into matter via replicators makes it so that the Federation needs only those things which are both necessary, and cannot be replicated. And those things can just about all be gotten on Federation worlds. Eventually, the Federation will run out of duterium. At that point in time, their way of life will be unsustainable. However, until then, they have no need for money. (What, did you think they needed to "pay" the miners? The miners get everything they want for free, as a result of working for the Federation, which has a surplus of resources.)

[Palantas]

It doesn’t make them unlimited' date=' but it does make them free.[/quote']

No, it doesn't make it free. Everything has an opportunity cost. Explain what you mean by "free� (More below.)

 

The Federation mines the duterium' date=' and then uses it for matter/antimatter engines, which generate far more energy than was used to mine it in the first place. The Federation is on a surplus of energy. Having the ability to convert energy into matter via replicators… [/quote']

You're simplifying the Federation’s entire economy and industrial capacity into “a surplus of energy.†How do you know there’s a surplus of energy? If replicators in fact operate, as you suggest, by converting energy into matter, then the energy cost of creating something as simple as a glass of water are astronomical. And the Federation has a surplus of resources? When did this happen? Did you not watch all those episodes of DS9 where the Federation was at risk of losing to the Dominion? This clearly implies that they could not produce all the starships and military equipment they needed, hence they do not have an excess of resources. The war with the Dominion aside, if the Federation has a large surplus of industrial resources, this would imply that these resources are unused, and that the Federation economy is highly inefficient (which may or may not be true).

 

…makes it so that the Federation needs only those things which are both necessary' date=' and cannot be replicated. And those things can just about all be gotten on Federation worlds.[/quote']

There are limits to what replicators can produce. This was explicitly demonstrated in 3x07 “The Enemy,†where Dr. Crusher is unable to replicate ribosomes for a Romulan patient, because “the molecules are too complex.†There’s nothing particularly complex about ribosomes. Although this fails to establish clear limits to replicator technology, it certainly implies they exist. At the very least, replicators are unable to provide all the goods necessary to meet the needs of Federation citizens.

 

However' date=' until then, they have no need for money. (What, did you think they needed to "pay" the miners? [/quote']

First, I’m not arguing that the Federation doesn’t pay government employees, at least not in the way we think. What I am arguing is this idea that because you don’t have to pay people, then their labor becomes free, and mining deuterium or anything else suddenly becomes free. If you have people and equipment mining deuterium (see below) then you’re not using these resources in some other industry. Nothing’s free. And we’ve moved from the miners getting everything they “need†for free to everything they “want†for free. Replicators have gone from being able to freely provide 100% of a populations basic needs to being founts of human happiness. I’ve always thought that replicators alone failed to explain the apparent utopia of the Federation’s core systems.

 

Eventually' date=' the Federation will run out of duterium. At that point in time, their way of life will be unsustainable. [/quote']

On a final note, correct me if I'm wrong, but we're talking about "deuterium" here, right? That's an isotope of hydrogen. They don't need to really mine it, they just collect it. And it’s certainly never going to run out.

 

[Tenebrae]

Picard says that "energy and matter are interchangable" in TNG and in DS9 it's implied that replicators have the ability to revert matter to energy (Sisko telling Jake to put plates back in the replicator etc.). So why bother messing around with dangerous stuff like anti-matter?

 

Replicators aren't quite a panacea for everything but I think if you can provide food, shelter, clothing etc. with ease and you have a society where people aren't driven by greed - then that's pretty much freeing them up to pursue happiness.

[queenhank]

Picard says that "energy and matter are interchangable" in TNG and in DS9 it's implied that replicators have the ability to revert matter to energy (Sisko telling Jake to put plates back in the replicator etc.). So why bother messing around with dangerous stuff like anti-matter?

 

I can think of three reasons, directly off the top of my head. One, the replication process uses energy itsself. Two, Warp Drive takes a lot of power. Three, you can't power entire worlds on refuse.

 

No, it doesn't make it free. Everything has an opportunity cost. Explain what you mean by "free� (More below.)

 

By "free" I meant nobody was getting "paid" for services, and nobody had to "buy" any equipment.

 

You're simplifying the Federation’s entire economy and industrial capacity into “a surplus of energy.â€ÂÂ

 

For the record: yes I am. I am sure there are more complex parts of their economy, which a few people spend their whole lives dealing with, but we're not talking about the exact makeup of the Federation economy, are we? No, we're talking about the basic structure of it, and I believe that comes down to a surplus of energy, and thus resources.

 

How do you know there’s a surplus of energy?

 

Because there has never been an episode in which they said "Sir, we are out of deuterium" (sorry for the previous misspellings, by the way).

 

If replicators in fact operate, as you suggest, by converting energy into matter, then the energy cost of creating something as simple as a glass of water are astronomical.

 

I believe the equation is E=MC^2. So, the energy it takes to produce a glass of water is equal to the mass of a glass of water multiplied by C squared. But are you forgetting that the energy then created by converting a torn uniform is even greater than that? Not to mention every time somebody goes to the bathroom...

 

And the Federation has a surplus of resources? When did this happen?

 

Some time after TOS, when they figured out how to convert energy into solid matter, in any combination they chose.

 

Did you not watch all those episodes of DS9 where the Federation was at risk of losing to the Dominion? This clearly implies that they could not produce all the starships and military equipment they needed, hence they do not have an excess of resources.

 

I watched them. Did you think that a starship could be replicated whole? No, each piece must be replicated, then put together by a team of engineers over the course of several months (at least). Then the ship must be tested (not to mention STAFFED. Excess of RESOURCES, not excess of PERSONNEL), and all the bugs must be fixed. Only then, after nearly a year (if everything was hurried) can one single new ship be launched. The Dominion had more battle resources because making that sort of thing takes a long time, not because the Federation couldn't do it.

 

the Federation economy is highly inefficient (which may or may not be true).

 

I'd say it is. Remember all those remote colonies and outposts? They are always in horrible condition, and I would imagine that is due to innefficient distribution of resources.

 

There are limits to what replicators can produce. This was explicitly demonstrated in 3x07 “The Enemy,†where Dr. Crusher is unable to replicate ribosomes for a Romulan patient, because “the molecules are too complex.†There’s nothing particularly complex about ribosomes. Although this fails to establish clear limits to replicator technology, it certainly implies they exist. At the very least, replicators are unable to provide all the goods necessary to meet the needs of Federation citizens.

 

You are talking about two different things here. Replicators cannot make certain things, sure, but how many Federation citizens need Ketracel-white? Or Romulan ribosomes? Or Latinum? Very few, I suspect. They have all the food they need, and all the clothing they need, and all the shelter they need, and all the books they want, and heating is free, and etc. etc. ad infinitum. They are like the US, in that respect.

 

First, I’m not arguing that the Federation doesn’t pay government employees, at least not in the way we think. What I am arguing is this idea that because you don’t have to pay people, then their labor becomes free, and mining deuterium or anything else suddenly becomes free. If you have people and equipment mining deuterium (see below) then you’re not using these resources in some other industry.

 

So...because somebody is a miner, instead of a starship captain, their services are not free? A limit of people is only a limit of resources if you see people as resources, which I do not. The people are the ones using the resources. And there are more than enough people to get things done in the Federation, anyways. How else would the Federation have survived for so long? And the equipment is not limited, in that anybody, anywhere, can create more (with the exception of things too large to replicate). I fail to see how you have demonstrated a lack of resources.

 

They use deuterium to fuel matter/antimatter engines, which create energy on the scale of E=MC^2, with very little loss from the procedure (that's why they use deuterium and matter/antimatter conversion, I suspect - because it is efficient). Then, that energy is used for powering starships, running cities, and also conversion into other forms of matter. Furthermore, energy-matter conversion is aided by previous matter-energy conversions which have been done. Until such a time as the Federation does not have enough deuterium to run their machines, they will continue to have...dare I say it?...a surplus of resources.

 

(And as a side note, I thought I'd made it rather clear earlier, but I guess not: anything which they CAN'T replicate, and is NEEDED - the number of things in this category being demonstrably small - can be traded for...using the unlimited resources of the Federation as bartering fare.)

[Tenebrae]

 

I can think of three reasons, directly off the top of my head. One, the replication process uses energy itsself. Two, Warp Drive takes a lot of power. Three, you can't power entire worlds on refuse.

 

1. Yes but given the monumental amount of energy that is contained in trivial quantities of matter, as a proportion it'll be small.

 

2. And? Carry around a lot of the most dangerous substance in the universe, expending energy on its containment etc, when you could just carry around harmless matter which would give you close to the same amount.

 

3. Given that this would be - let's me less than generous and say it's giving 95% of the energy back - higher in efficiency than anything other than matter/anti-matter reactions (which by your own admission have the problem of anti-matter being pretty inefficient to generate) I fail to see the relevance. The refuse would generate lots of energy and if it doesn't meet the needs, ship in more matter. It seems like you're saying deutrium needs shipped around the place.

 

So really, I fail to see any of these three points to be issues... although I admit that without knowing the actual efficiency of the replicators it's not exactly water-tight.

 

And I don't really think you're winning any points with your neo-classical outlook. ;)

[queenhank]

I would assume that things would not be as they are if matter/antimatter reactions are nearly the equal of, or only slightly better than, matter-energy conversion. Likely, matter-energy conversion is somewhere around 80-90% efficient, while matter/antimatter is >95%, thus making it FAR more efficient to use. Plus, the matter/antimatter reaction of deuterium need only be funneled through dilithium crystals in order to be usable for Warp Drive, while matter-energy conversion would need to be changed into the proper form of energy, THEN funneled through dilithium.

 

Remember: we are working off the knowledge that they have, even after several hundred years, drawn the conclusion that matter/antimatter reaction is better for powering their ships than matter-energy conversion.

[Palantas]

Let me summarize what I believe are your points:

1. Federation matter/antimatter power sources provide more energy than the Federation could hope to use.

2. Replicators function on direct matter to energy conversion.

3. Being able to construct virtually anything (excepting extremely large parts like starship hulls), replicators can create every good that a person needs to function in a 24th century society.

4. Since their material needs are satisfied, Federation citizens work for free, creating unlimited resources for the Federation.

 

I’ll address these more or less in order.

 

Because there has never been an episode in which they said "Sir, we are out of deuterium" (sorry for the previous misspellings, by the way).

That’s a red herring. Deuterium is a fuel source used to power the reaction. The presence or absence of deuterium was never an issue when the Enterprise was running low on power.

 

This has minimal impact on what we’re talking about, but I’ll say again, they’re not going to run out of deuterium. There’s certainly more deuterium in our solar system than there is iron or any of the heavy elements prevalent on Earth.

 

I wasn’t picking on your spelling. I hate nitpickers. I didn’t know if it actually said “duterium†instead of “deuterium†in some sourcebook. I thought the writers might be inventing elements again.

 

An issue I have yet to see addressed here is, “Where do they get the antimatter?†You don’t just go collect antimatter off a star like you do with deuterium. You have to make it. We can make antimatter today. It just requires millions of times more energy than is released when you actually collide a deuterium atom with your newly created antideuterium. Obviously, after 300 years, this process will have likely become more efficient, but there still must be some net energy loss in generating the antimatter in the first place. (I know for a fact the TM addresses this issue directly. Mine’s in a box somewhere in the garage, unfortunately.) Furthermore, antimatter is very dangerous and requires the presence of magnetic containment fields which themselves draw some juice. The use of fusion reactors implies there are at least some limits to the scale and practicality of antimatter-driven devices. Deep Space Nine is powered by six fusion reactors. (“The Science in Science Fictionâ€ÂÂ)

 

The following is just my theory:

Antimatter reactors are used onboard starships, which need sudden, large spikes of power for warp travel and space combat. However, for steady state power generation, as on a planetary installation (or orbital mining station), fusion reactors are often used.

 

Addressing Point 1, the notion that “since the Federation has matter/antimatter reactors, they have essentially limitless energy†is questionable.

 

Moving on to Points 2 & 3, it is highly suspect that replicators operate on direct energy to mass principles. If this were the case, why is there any substance that replicators cannot make? You mention Ketracel, which is a drug. As it is a drug, it must be devoid of heavy elements, or it would be incredibly toxic to carbon-based organisms. Even further along this line are the ribosomes than the Enterprise computer was unable to fabricate. There’s nothing at all atomically complex about protein and RNA. Let me quote Dr. Crusher from “The Enemy†again, “the molecules are too complex.†This would suggest that the Enterprise’s replicators cannot alter substances on a molecular level, let alone at the atomic or subatomic. How often is the Enterprise shuttling around some desperately needed plot device…err, I mean medical substance (TNG: “Code of Honorâ€ÂÂ), or the Ferengi wheeling and dealing for some new booze (DS9: “Rules of Acquisitionâ€ÂÂ)? Why would anyone be doing any of this if the replicators could just squirt this stuff out for free?

 

I watched them. Did you think that a starship could be replicated whole?

No, I don’t think starships can be replicated whole, although you’ll run into plenty of people around the net who hold to this crazy idea. I’m of quite the opposite opinion, as I detailed above. If replicators are not up the task of assembling biological components, they’re hardly capable of producing the alloys of a starship’s hull.

 

No, each piece must be replicated, then put together by a team of engineers over the course of several months (at least). Then the ship must be tested (not to mention STAFFED. Excess of RESOURCES, not excess of PERSONNEL), and all the bugs must be fixed. Only then, after nearly a year (if everything was hurried) can one single new ship be launched. The Dominion had more battle resources because making that sort of thing takes a long time, not because the Federation couldn't do it.

For future discussions, let’s define “resources†to mean “factors of production.†It seems you may have been using “resources†and “energy†(like electrical-type energy) synonymously, which has led to some confusion. Let’s assume that the Federation does have tons of excess energy (which I don’t), giant terawatt Duracells orbiting Earth and so on. But when you can’t use all of this extra juice to get a GCS built any faster than a year, then it doesn’t do you a lot of good. When you have colonies plagued by famine and “roving rape gangs†(TNG: “Where No Ones Has Gone Beforeâ€ÂÂ) because you can’t actually distribute this energy in order to power replicators for food and condoms, then it doesn’t do you a lot of good. Keeping this in mind, we have to re-evaluate the utopia-through-replicators idea.

 

So...because somebody is a miner, instead of a starship captain, their services are not free? A limit of people is only a limit of resources if you see people as resources, which I do not. The people are the ones using the resources. And there are more than enough people to get things done in the Federation, anyways. How else would the Federation have survived for so long? And the equipment is not limited, in that anybody, anywhere, can create more (with the exception of things too large to replicate). I fail to see how you have demonstrated a lack of resources.

Yes, people are factors of production. You’re displaying an ignorance of basic economic theory. People (households) sell land, labor and capital to firms, which produce goods and services, which are bought by households. Money goes in the opposite direction.

 

How are there more than enough people to get things done? You just said that Starfleet DIDN’T have an excess of personnel with which to crew starships.

 

Let me reiterate the last part of Point 5: “The Federation has unlimited resources.†You said that. That’s a quote. Let me make sure I understand your reasoning…people in the Federation work for free, so none of the goods they produce go back into maintaining them. Is the Federation at large some sort of perpetual motion machine?

 

I was never trying to prove that the Federation lacked resources, or that their economy was shrinking. As long as the Federation is expanding, then that would indicate that they have a surplus of capital that they can re-invest instead of consume. I challenged the idea that since their workers aren’t paid with money, that their labor is therefore free.

 

I’m challenging the capabilities of replicators to satisfy the needs of Federation society to the point that its trade with surrounding powers is minimal. I’m challenging replicators’ capacity to completely satiate human greed.

 

Finally, in response to this post, I’m challenging the idea that the Federation has “unlimited†resources. If the Federation has unlimited resources, then they should demonstrate unlimited capabilities. I really don’t think you meant to say that, or if you did, you meant it in hyperbole.

 

[Silverwizard]

Remember, we should never forget that nice episode of TO; Mudd's Women, the ultimate in money dealings, "Yeah you can pay me, but it's better if I get something in exchange, and money is something I have to be in the mood for".

 

Obviously the money was collapsing at that point and a barter system was in place (ok, not obvious, but we might assume). And since Star Fleet has so much STUFF they can pay anyone not Star Fleet any amount with manpower and equipment (though I still don't see why waving a light across your arm to fix a cut takes a doctor and not Joe Average, and why they would pay a doctor), and their crews they can give their quarters and replicators. And as we see by how all of the different crew quarters look their are heirarchies. Possibly a Communist system like China, where people can do side work for extra money as well as teirs of equalness.

 

Likely Star Fleet officers have the weight of a fleet behind them for some things. Never forget Romulan Ale, somehow all of these peoples have connections outside the Federation system, likely meaning they are carrying some form of cash around. Which likely has to do with illicit, semi-illicit, or sanctioned but side dealings, which they use for things like Quark drinks and good ol' Romulan Ale. In exchange for? O'Brien's Scotch? Medical treatments or fix-it jobs for Basheir or O'Brian? Of course some of the money would have to go to Star Fleet to pay for their equipment, Star Fleet then uses this money in trade with other species (Romulans, Dominion, etc etc etc). and the crew uses it to gamble and not give to Alexander.

 

Also, why would you transfer energy to matter when you could just as easily smash hydrogen atoms together to make heavier elements, which you then bond into different molecules, then into the item, (a technology which we already have the basis for). I'd always assumed breaking down an object was to turn it into molecules (and then possibly into hydrogen). From there a ship flying around and collecting micrometeores and crap (see Enterprise's protein resequencer) are turned into that oh so good food they are eating.

[queenhank]

Edit: Perhaps it's something wrong on my end, but I am seeing "

" tags instead of quote boxes, and I have no idea why.

 

Let me summarize what I believe are your points:

1. Federation matter/antimatter power sources provide more energy than the Federation could hope to use.

2. Replicators function on direct matter to energy conversion.

3. Being able to construct virtually anything (excepting extremely large parts like starship hulls), replicators can create every good that a person needs to function in a 24th century society.

4. Since their material needs are satisfied, Federation citizens work for free, creating unlimited resources for the Federation.

 

1. No, what I meant is more along the lines of "they produce more energy than they need to use in order to maintain themselves". They have an excess, with which they can then have recreational activities, and make works of art, etc.

 

2. More or less. I assume the matter is broken down to a subatomic level at the very least, and is reassembled on that same scale. Otherwise, it's just removing electrons to generate electricity, and I highly doubt replicators are that inefficient. There is, of course, a loss in each conversion, which I figure to be larger than the loss in matter/antimatter reaction.

 

3. Essentially, yes. Except that I would add in that the replicators cannot build things that large only because of technical difficulties preventing the building of a large enough replicator, rather than an inability of replication technology to make that sort of thing.

 

4. That's a bit more simplistic than I would like to go with (while I would, indeed, like to keep things simple here). I would say it is more along the lines of there being neither a need for, or even concept of, equivalent trade within the Federation. That is, nobody is worried about whether they get paid enough, because everybody has equal access to essentially everything.

 

Because there has never been an episode in which they said "Sir, we are out of deuterium" (sorry for the previous misspellings, by the way).

That’s a red herring. Deuterium is a fuel source used to power the reaction. The presence or absence of deuterium was never an issue when the Enterprise was running low on power.

 

I was referring to the Federation as a whole. It has not yet run out of deuterium, and thus it has not yet run out of resources.

 

This has minimal impact on what we’re talking about, but I’ll say again, they’re not going to run out of deuterium. There’s certainly more deuterium in our solar system than there is iron or any of the heavy elements prevalent on Earth.

 

Here I am going to (partially) disagree. They will run out of deuterium. It is apparent that they go through it like there is no tomorrow, and will as such use up all the deuterium in the Federation eventually. The question is: how long will they be able to keep that up? I figure there is enough deuterium to keep up such practices for several centuries at least before they run out.

 

I wasn’t picking on your spelling. I hate nitpickers. I didn’t know if it actually said “duterium†instead of “deuterium†in some sourcebook. I thought the writers might be inventing elements again.

 

No problem. I thought the spelling looked wrong, but being an English major means I often get technical terms wrong, since I don't often encounter them.

 

An issue I have yet to see addressed here is, “Where do they get the antimatter?â€ÂÂ

 

I have always assumed that they have figured out a way of processing deuterium into antideuterium with little or no energy cost, thus making the gains outweigh the costs. Otherwise, why the hell would they use it?

 

Furthermore, antimatter is very dangerous and requires the presence of magnetic containment fields which themselves draw some juice.

 

Indeed. But then, we've seen that they have easy-to-create force-fields in Star Trek (post-ENT, of course). But then, we are now getting into the specifics of engineering, and I'd like to keep this on the side of the UFP's economic system.

 

The use of fusion reactors implies there are at least some limits to the scale and practicality of antimatter-driven devices. Deep Space Nine is powered by six fusion reactors. (“The Science in Science Fictionâ€ÂÂ)

 

DS9 is powered by six fusion reactors, yes. Most likely because it is a Cardassian station, and they did not feel like (for whatever reason) putting in a matter/anti-matter reactor.

 

The following is just my theory:

 

That's all we've been dealing with;)

 

Antimatter reactors are used onboard starships, which need sudden, large spikes of power for warp travel and space combat. However, for steady state power generation, as on a planetary installation (or orbital mining station), fusion reactors are often used.

 

However, as we have seen, the ships don't just use the antimatter reactors for Warp speed and phaser fire, they are on constantly. This is another thing that leads me to believe that the process, from creation of the antimatter to the gathering of released energy, is extremely efficient.

 

Addressing Point 1, the notion that “since the Federation has matter/antimatter reactors, they have essentially limitless energy†is questionable.

 

It is. That much, I will admit. However, I have seen no other explanation which better fits the evidence we've seen.

 

Moving on to Points 2 & 3, it is highly suspect that replicators operate on direct energy to mass principles. If this were the case, why is there any substance that replicators cannot make?

 

Think of the actual devices. Sure, theoretically, they can create anything. But in practice, perhaps there are things too complex for the computers in the 24th century to handle. It's not that they couldn't be replicated, just that they can't.

 

You mention Ketracel, which is a drug.

 

Is it? (Note: this is a genuine question. Although I was under the impression that the Dominion simply breeds their soldiers in such a way that the require Ketracel-white to survive. It isn't necessarily a drug, and I never thought it was.)

 

As it is a drug, it must be devoid of heavy elements, or it would be incredibly toxic to carbon-based organisms.

 

Since we're dealing with a substance whose properties are unknown to us, this kind of assumption is impossible to prove. We simply don't know, and have no evidence either way, whether Ketracel-white is devoid of heavy elements, or whether an organism can be altered so as for it to not be toxic to them. And purely out of curiosity, what is it that makes drugs unable to have heavy elements?

 

Even further along this line are the ribosomes than the Enterprise computer was unable to fabricate. There’s nothing at all atomically complex about protein and RNA. Let me quote Dr. Crusher from “The Enemy†again, “the molecules are too complex.â€ÂÂ

 

For one thing, we have no idea how simple or complex Romulan protein and RNA are. You are making assumptions based on Terran genomes, which are entirely invalid when dealing with extraterrestrial lifeforms.

 

This would suggest that the Enterprise’s replicators cannot alter substances on a molecular level, let alone at the atomic or subatomic.

 

How so? I fail to see how such a connection could be made.

 

How often is the Enterprise shuttling around some desperately needed plot device…err, I mean medical substance (TNG: “Code of Honorâ€ÂÂ), or the Ferengi wheeling and dealing for some new booze (DS9: “Rules of Acquisitionâ€ÂÂ)? Why would anyone be doing any of this if the replicators could just squirt this stuff out for free?

 

Well, replicators do not make alcohol, by design. As for “medical substancesâ€ÂÂ, is it so hard to accept that the computers in Star Trek have limitations? Sure, they are light-years ahead of our own, but perhaps there are some things even too complex for them to handle, such as the replication of certain things.

 

I watched them. Did you think that a starship could be replicated whole?

No, I don’t think starships can be replicated whole, although you’ll run into plenty of people around the net who hold to this crazy idea. I’m of quite the opposite opinion, as I detailed above. If replicators are not up the task of assembling biological components, they’re hardly capable of producing the alloys of a starship’s hull.

 

Like I said: it’s not that they couldn’t, it’s that they can’t. And the alloys of a starship’s hull would almost certainly be within the purview of the replicator. It’s just that there is no replicator big enough to make the entire hull at once. Instead, it must be made in sections, which are pieced together by engineers.

 

For future discussions, let’s define “resources†to mean “factors of production.â€ÂÂ

 

I’d really rather not, as that is not what I mean by “resourcesâ€ÂÂ. By “resourcesâ€ÂÂ, I mean “energy, and those things which cannot be replicated†While energy is certainly a factor of production, there is also more to it. I have been using a broad definition of “resourcesâ€ÂÂ, to be sure, but it is still valid. Is there a term which is more accurate?

 

It seems you may have been using “resources†and “energy†(like electrical-type energy) synonymously, which has led to some confusion.

 

Yes, and no. I do not mean “electrical-type energyâ€ÂÂ, but rather “any kind of energy, be it heat, light, radiation, kinetic, etc.â€ÂÂ, because I figure they have figured out how to utilize all types of energy generated by matter/antimatter reaction.

 

Let’s assume that the Federation does have tons of excess energy (which I don’t), giant terawatt Duracells orbiting Earth and so on.

 

I think I am beginning to see where our misunderstanding lies. I do not think they are storing any excess energy, at least not for any large period of time. I think they are using it for holodecks, and building new structures, and all those things that go beyond survival and maintenance.

 

But when you can’t use all of this extra juice to get a GCS built any faster than a year, then it doesn’t do you a lot of good.

 

I agree.

 

When you have colonies plagued by famine and “roving rape gangs†(TNG: “Where No Ones Has Gone Beforeâ€ÂÂ) because you can’t actually distribute this energy in order to power replicators for food and condoms, then it doesn’t do you a lot of good. Keeping this in mind, we have to re-evaluate the utopia-through-replicators idea.

 

Indeed. And, as we have seen, the Federation, with the exception of Earth and a few other planets, is far from the utopia they proclaim it to be. I never said replicators bring utopia, just that they are the cornerstone of the Federation’s money-less society.

 

So...because somebody is a miner, instead of a starship captain, their services are not free? A limit of people is only a limit of resources if you see people as resources, which I do not. The people are the ones using the resources. And there are more than enough people to get things done in the Federation, anyways. How else would the Federation have survived for so long? And the equipment is not limited, in that anybody, anywhere, can create more (with the exception of things too large to replicate). I fail to see how you have demonstrated a lack of resources.

Yes, people are factors of production. You’re displaying an ignorance of basic economic theory. People (households) sell land, labor and capital to firms, which produce goods and services, which are bought by households. Money goes in the opposite direction.

 

You seem to be forgetting that we are attempting to define the parameters of an entirely money-less society. The Federation does not use money. I believe they do not even have a concept of equivalent exchange of goods and services. You just do something. Not to gain a reward, but just because it needs doing, in order to maintain your way of life, in which you need nothing. That is the theory I think the Federation works off of. I don’t think they really have an “economy†at all, so much as a seemingly limitless resource. Imagine for a moment getting on a boat, and sailing to a new continent, where everything you need to survive is readily available, and in great abundance. You, and everyone else on the boat, have more than enough to go around. It will eventually run out, but not in your lifetime. That, metaphorically, is the sort of place the Federation is. Except, all the stuff is in the center of the continent, and there are too many people for everyone to live there. So, stuff has to be carried to the people outside the center. I could go on to the inevitable conclusion, but I think it’s fairly obvious where I am going with this.

 

How are there more than enough people to get things done? You just said that Starfleet DIDN’T have an excess of personnel with which to crew starships.

 

Yes. You are talking about two different things. There are enough people in the Federation to do all those things which the Federation, as a whole, needs done to keep going. Manning a starship is a whole other thing. Starfleet has only the best and brightest in it, and their personnel get several years of intensive training before they ever get on a ship. Unfortunately, this makes for crew shortages in a wartime situation..

 

Let me reiterate the last part of Point 5: “The Federation has unlimited resources.†You said that. That’s a quote. Let me make sure I understand your reasoning…people in the Federation work for free, so none of the goods they produce go back into maintaining them. Is the Federation at large some sort of perpetual motion machine?

 

Yeah, I was being a bit overly simplistic. I mean “the Federation can safely act as though it has unlimited resourcesâ€ÂÂ. The resources will run out…eventually. But not now, and not in the immediate future.

 

I was never trying to prove that the Federation lacked resources, or that their economy was shrinking. As long as the Federation is expanding, then that would indicate that they have a surplus of capital that they can re-invest instead of consume. I challenged the idea that since their workers aren’t paid with money, that their labor is therefore free.

 

You are, of course, working off the assumption that their economy is like something you have seen before. I contend that it is not. There is no capital, just seemingly unlimited everything. Imagine the US, if the annual GNP were infinity (or, to be more precise, some really high number which we could never hope to use up in our lifetimes).

 

I’m challenging the capabilities of replicators to satisfy the needs of Federation society to the point that its trade with surrounding powers is minimal. I’m challenging replicators’ capacity to completely satiate human greed.

 

I can understand that, and I disagree. I think you are placing limitations on their resources and technologies which we have been shown do not exist.

 

Finally, in response to this post, I’m challenging the idea that the Federation has “unlimited†resources. If the Federation has unlimited resources, then they should demonstrate unlimited capabilities. I really don’t think you meant to say that, or if you did, you meant it in hyperbole.

 

Like I said, I simply meant “enough beyond what they need to survive to make life relatively comfortable, so long as the system is maintainedâ€ÂÂ…that’s just too long to say every time;)

[Wazer]

vystral you mean the bit where she asks how big the ship is and then says it took me months to scrounge up enother titanium for the phoenix and Picard replies that the Economy of the 24th century is very different and that they work to improve themselves.

And Lily replies incredulously "You mean you don't get paid?"

 

Unfortunately this still doesn't reveal much as it was prevoiusly stated that they don't get paid.

[Tenebrae]

In "For the Cause" (I believe) Sisko makes referene to "industrial replicators", I assume they're more capable of making big things but we know even regular replicators can make fairly complex machinery. Quark replicates the luck-generators, tries to replicate the telepathic inhibitor in "The Jem'Hadar".

 

We've seen them create cardassian energy weapons etc.

 

I don't think that replicators are really the way human greed is eliminated - it's implied often that this is societal and a result of humanity "coming together". Besides, a replicator could satisfy a person desire but never sate them. This has never been evidenced.

 

To the anti-matter point - there's not really any evidence to suggest that it's easily produced and there are several instances of the ships mainly drawing on their fusion reactors for everything but warp. In TNG there are several instances of them talking about diverting power from the warp engines. This would suggest that the deuterium is used in fusion reactors.

 

I'd say there is a great deal more evidence to suggest that than the production of anti-matter in any significant quantities onboard - which to the best of my recollection is pretty hypothetical. I don't doubt they can probably make some but significant quanities - who knows?

 

The important thing to remember here is that this isn't the kind of economy that we have any models for. You've got the ability to transform energy to matter and back. Not to mention vast amounts of energy being generated and the lack of money. Trying to hammer it into a conventional mould for economics just isn't worth bothering about.

[queenhank]

Trying to hammer it into a conventional mould for economics just isn't worth bothering about.

 

Oh, come on. You know me better than that, don't you?

[Tenebrae]

That was more a general comment.

 

Things like GNP and so on are clearly irrelevant in Trek... I wonder why they didn't make something like the Starforge, sit on top of a star and suck off all the matter and process it into ships but then, the episode generator software doesn't actually have an "originality" or "innovation" button.

[Wazer]

There are some mistakes people are making here which I would like to clear up.

 

First Deuterium is NOT mined it is a isotope of hydrogen and you can get it anywhere, water, hydrogen gas clouds ( ie nebulae ) or by irradiating water for heavy water (deuterated water) [ all of this is very easy as hydrogen makes up 99% of all mater in the universe] This is a good fuel for fusion reactors on starships not worth the while for anti-matter reactor.

 

2) What they mine is Dilithium for the control crystals in the antimater drive control crystals

 

3) An antimatter reacter will most likely use hydrogen as the matter fuel and anti-hydrogen or most likely anti-protons ( as these have a -ve charge and are easy to magnetically confine )

 

All of which means for powering a starship you can fly into a nebulae with your busard collector collect all the hydrogen you want extract the deuterium for the fusion reactor (impulse power) and you have most of your fuel.

Now all you need is a supply of anti-matter and a few of Star Treks magic dilithium crystals.

 

If the episodes say otherwise they are plain WRONG

 

Talking about complexity the replicators it is clear they cannnot create some complex molecules like proteins in a biologically active form. Most proteins in food have been cooked and are thus denatured or they taste the same if they are not folded correctly. A replicator may be able to product metals, food, plastics etc. They are may even be able to make human ribosomes which are a fair simple conglomeration of two protein subgroups but who says romulan ribosome are as simple as ours.

 

This leaves anti-matter production which the writter fail give us details on and dilithium mining which the Doctor from Voyagers' holographic counterparts seem to be doing as it is not apopular vocation. This is the basis of the Federation economy.

[queenhank]

If the episodes say otherwise they are plain WRONG

 

How so? You explained why it would be easier to use deuterium in the regular fusion reactors, and hydrogen in the matter/antimatter reactor, but not that it is impossible to do otherwise.