Guest c4evap Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Yeah...they made us sing to. I really hated that! BYW...welcome to the forum Dextera! c4 :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tablet Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Wel used to have to say prayers and sing everyday, then again i did go to a roman catholic school which is probably why im aethiest now ;) (BTW C4 i sent you more script...again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 I don't remember ever having to say prayers in school...but I sure had to say them at home! My father was a minister...which is most certainly why I abhor organized religion. Some of those prayers (like Grimm's Fairy Tales) were down right spooky! (IE: Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the lord my soul to take, if I should die before I wake, I pray the load my soul to take.) Just plain creepy! I once got smacked (by my father) at the dinner table for saying grace: Good bread, good meat, good lord, let's eat! LOL :p p.s. Tablet - if you sent it recently...I didn't get it. My forum mailbox is MT. c4 B) ~ Many men eat but Fu Man Chew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Why is the Church against voyeurism? God is watching you ALL the time. I never liked religion - I was born a godless blasphemous abomination and that's the way I'll stay until I precipitate Armaggedon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dextera Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Yeah...they made us sing to. I really hated that! BYW...welcome to the forum Dextera! c4 :D thank you~ and i certainly hope god isnt watching us ALL the time..... that would really ruin the sex life..... unless you was a porn star then i guess it wouldnt matter couse you would be use to people watching you do it... (no offence to any god-type-peoples here -has no idea how to refer to people who follow a god when talking in mass numbers- :P) mmm... just out of idle, does that make god a pervert? thats a serious question. FYI: no. i dont believe in god. i believe in things i can see and feel, and i believe that if something as powerfull and as careing as god existed. then he wouldnt make us live such horribly painful lives. -just my opinion. please dont take offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjnave Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Separation of church and state? OK. Look at American money - "IN GOD WE TRUST". WTF? Does not sound too separate to me... Seperation of Church and State was never meant to meant to remove God from all levels of government. If you follow history, the early Americans had left England to get away from religious opression; at the time, if you did not follow the king's version of Christianity (which was Angicanism) you were killed. Many protestants were being burned as heretics. When writing the constitution, the founding fathers (who of the majority were devoted Christians) wanted to make sure that no king or other political figure would be able to tell people HOW they could worship God. In sense they were saying, that you were able to follow your Chrisitianity in whatever denominational manner you wish: without fear of imprisonment. In other words... the head of state is not the head of the Church (as was the case with the king of England) and cannot impose a law stating you MUST adhere to one form of religion or another. The irony is that in interpreting the consitution the way we have, we are actually doing the VERY thing that the founding fathers were trying to avoid: making laws regarding how you can worship and how you cannot. By saying that God CANNOT be part of government (and topics like Intelligent design cannot be discussed) we are in actuality imposing a state funded religion: this being Secular Humanism (aka Atheism). Religion is merely another word for "worldview" or "belief system". Thus, atheism is also a religion: they strongly believe in what they believe. If you want to do away with religion in government, then you had better 1) do away with all worldview (including atheism and evolotion, etc..): which of course is impossible. 2) tell people how they must think and safeguard it with legislature: which is what is taking place and is the very thing the consitution was written to avoid in the first place. This will probably be my last post in this thread and I usually avoid these threads like the plague. Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antipodean Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 gjnave: Mate, i understand where you are coming from but PLEASE don't go and suggest that secular government equates to state mandated atheism, Your arguement is spurious and based on a false assumption. You see, while you are quite right when you describe the reasons why the founding fathers of the US decided that Separation of Church & state was essential to good government, I have to say that when you suggest that the the way that constitutional provision is currently being interpreted somehow equates to state sponsored atheism, well thats crazy talk. Firstly secular government IS NOT IN FACT THE SAME THING as secular humanism, even if those terms do share a single word. Secular humanism = a system of morality and ethics that seeks to exist independently of any religion or god. Secular government = government that carrys out everyday public affairs, leaving spiritual matters to spiritual institutions. And its great. And it DOES protect religion in exactly the manner that the founding fathers of the United States intended. Secondly, a world view is NOT in fact the same thing as a religion. That too would be crazy talk. I think the following quote puts it better than I ever could, One wonders how, after the 20th century's record of mass murder by regimes hag-ridden by religious or ideological furies, there are still American leaders unable to affirm one of the Lord's greatest gifts: secular government. Secular, limited, checked and balanced government can carry on the everyday, pedestrian business of public affairs, leaving ultimate commitments to guidance by the churches or synagogues ... in the climate and practice of American Religious Liberty both "church" and "state" have prospered, each in benevolent independence of the other, neither in subservience to the other. Looking at the disasters, including genocide, that have accompanied 20th century combinations of organized belief systems and organized political systems, most of them professing perfectionist or utopian purposes, we do well to remember David Hume. Hume, a Scottish philosopher and public servant who died in the year of our Declaration of Independence, He never saw the launching of the American experiment. But he knew a truth that is a corner stone of our liberties: "To reach for perfection, to seek an ideal, is noble but dangerous, and is therefore an activity that individuals or voluntary groups may pursue, but governments certainly should not." And let us all say, "Amen!" Let the public schools, as institutions serving all children of the citizens, receive energetic support, both spiritual and financial. And let those who want their children to have an education of special ideological or religious flavor do so without civic disabilities, disabilities they exact of others in countries where they are dominant. And let them do it at their own expense. (Quote taken from Secular Government: One of God's Greatest Gifts by Dr. Franklin H. Littell, a Methodist minister, college professor and Holocaust expert) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 Antipodean is quite right. As is Dr. Littell. Secular government is the best way forward... as is secular society. As far as I can tell America is struggling to have ONE of those and it certainly isn't in any danger of having both. Atheism is a strong word... what about agnostics or non-theists? They definitely don't have strong views on the (non)-belief. In any event, I'd be hard pressed to see a secular government opressing any minorities by... say... homosexuals... and oh, at random - the right to marry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dextera Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 Antipodean is quite right. As is Dr. Littell. Secular government is the best way forward... as is secular society. As far as I can tell America is struggling to have ONE of those and it certainly isn't in any danger of having both. Atheism is a strong word... what about agnostics or non-theists? They definitely don't have strong views on the (non)-belief. In any event, I'd be hard pressed to see a secular government opressing any minorities by... say... homosexuals... and oh, at random - the right to marry. yea thats kinda dumb... i dont see whats wrong with letting two people who care about each get married... and it doesnt really affect anybody (other than those directly involved) if they're the same sex... anyways, has anybody else noticed that this has gone way off topic? lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 I'd like to have seen Kirk vs. some Christian Fundamentalists. He's pretty much their anti-Christ. Committed to tolerance, understanding and inter-racial relationships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjnave Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 Secular government is the best way forward... as is secular society. We are not talking about the validity of secular government. We are talking about whether God can be mentioned in a secular government or not. At any rate, as far as I’m concerned what the founding fathers desired in a “secular†govt. comes back to that they did not want the head of the state to also be the head of the state. No one should tell us how we should view and worship God (even if that means we should view God as non-existent and not worship Him at all). Or in other words, no one person should rule both the country and the church: separation of church and state. Secondly, a world view is NOT in fact the same thing as a religion. Onto the subject of worldview: To say that religion is not worldview is not accurate. You cannot have religion without worldview. For example, I see the world as created by a loving God who desires to have relationship with us. However through our own act of rebellion we have turned on back on His plan for our lives, causing self inflicted pain. Through His desire to heal us He has sent His son Jesus to be an agent of change and healing in our lives. This effects the way I look at governments, individuals, history, science, families, the list goes on and on. An atheist looks at the world as created by random chance and billions of years of development. He does not believe in the spiritual but believes solely in the physical. That salvation must come from mankind itself. This also effects the way that he would look at governments, individuals, history, science, families, and on and on. The confusion between religion and worldview comes when you began talking about religious “acts of worship†and religious worldview. There is a big difference between the two. Should someone be forced to partake in mass at school? Absolutely not… but should the mentioning of God be outlawed? Absolutely not… Even so religious acts are still only acts based upon a worldview. “Because I see the world in THIS way, I respond in THIS wayâ€ÂÂ. We all do that whether our worldview encompasses God or not. If I look at the world as an uncaring place then I don’t trust people and that shows in how I act around others, etc.. So then even atheists/humanists/whatever also have their own acts of worship/and or religious service. Because they see the world in a certain way they respond in another. Some people, because they don’t believe that there is anything to be found outside of themselves, look in a mirror every morning and affirm their own deity/value/whatever. They see this as important to their worldview. In a sense this becomes their daily service. Likewise people who believe in God see the world in a certain way and believe (whether right or wrong) that they must respond in a certain way. So for example, a Christian sees the world and him/her self in such a way that he believes he needs to pray daily or meet with others weekly for encouragement. You get enough people who have the same worldview, then they get together and a “church†is founded. You get enough atheists together and an organization is founded: atheists even have their own international symbol to unite themselves with. Although an atheist would never call himself religious, his beliefs run deep and there ARE basic tenants of the faith: just like any other religious worldview. The point we are debating though is what should be allowed. We would all agree (including myself) that we shouldn’t force one construct of thinking upon another. However, by disallowing or teaching only secular topics, you are endorsing a secular worldview. People will believe SOMETHING. When the school system says that a subject like (say) evolution can be taught but that another thing (say) like Intelligent Design (or whatever) cannot, they are sanctioning a specific worldview. – saying that it is more valid than another. People will believe what they are taught. So when we say that one topic shouldn’t be taught because it’s “stupid†or “superstition†then we are effectively biasing people towards how they should view the world (at any rate, who wants to be considered “stupid†or “superstitiousâ€ÂÂ)?. So.. if no faith based view can be expressed then people will believe the secular worldview which has been presented to them. Which means the government is endorsing a specific worldview. The answer is to somehow give room for different worldviews to be taught and not just Christianity, or Islam, or whatever, and not just Secular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 The important thing to remember about a secular society/government is - it will afford various different freedoms to all its citizens. A religious society will not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted June 2, 2006 Share Posted June 2, 2006 I'd like to have seen Kirk vs. some Christian Fundamentalists. He's pretty much their anti-Christ. Committed to tolerance, understanding and inter-racial relationships. The important thing to remember about a secular society/government is - it will afford various different freedoms to all its citizens. A religious society will not. Well put x2! c4 :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted June 2, 2006 Share Posted June 2, 2006 Yeah, it's not exactly as if they're equal platforms. For example, in the UK Muslims are free to wear they're delicious sounding kebab clothes but in a strictly Muslim country (Saudi Arabia comes to mind), a western woman can't walk around as she pleases. And yeah, I'm awesome. Now to magically edit this story before the day is out. Argentinians are depending on me (really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 Whoa...hahaha. Don't get a swelled head there fella! Even President Bush says something worthy once in a while... c4 :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GewehrSoldat Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 Yeah, the US really needs to stick to it's consitution, or just give it up and do away with the facade. We need to find the bodies of the founding fathers and exhume them. They're spinning so fast right now their bodies could power the eastern seaboard. I am an agnostic, there is no proof for god(s) that proves his(their)existence, and it is nigh impossible to prove something doesn't exist (prove to me that the fantastic four aren't alive and kicking somewhere). So, I simply suspend judgement, I can't say for sure wether or not there are dieties, although I am leaning towards atheism. Between things occuring on their own and some supernatural being with impossible qualities, who commited atrocities and inspired ancient men to write a book filled with ridiculous notions so he could condemn us to hell for eternity if we couldn't accept him on faith. I think things occuring naturally is more likely. Anyway, the whole "In god we trust" thing chaps my ass. I can't stand it. I don't want to see god references on my money, I don't want to see the ten commandments in a courtroom. They have no place there at all. Would christians appreciate it if an angry atheist took office and changed all the money to read "God isn't real" or "Fuck Jesus" on it? Of course not, so just as christians would not want to have anti god sayings on their money, I dont' want to have any spiritual reference on my money. The ten commandments is even worse. Might as well toss some other scriptures up there as well. Like the onw about it being ok to beat your slaves as long as they don't die right away or how you should kill anyone that doesn't believe in the same god. How about some laws from the koran or other religious texts? Don't want those int he court, I don't want a statue of charleton heston holding up the ten commandments, either. Don't even get me started on the second ammendment. At 18 you can carry a pistol, asault rifle, sub machine gun, grenade launcher..... all manner of weapons as long as you are protecting either the government or someone who is wealthy or their money. At 18 you can die for your country, but you can't buy a hand gun to protect yourself. Slowly, guns are being banned, until the government will be the only people with guns. When that time comes and the government decides to do something illegal (like they have already been doing), you can't even protect yourself from them. Militias to keep the government in check, to stop it from becoming tyrannical? Too late. Government won. Freedom has left the building. Used to be that the only thing we had to fear was fear itself, now all we have to fear is not having enough fear. Don't worry, though. Pray to god and call the cops when someone is breaking into your home and maybe god/the government will get there in time to save you if the intruder is intent on causing you harm. Wouldn't count on it... bet you wish you had a gun to protect yourself with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amnot Borg Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 God/dess save and preserve us all. Topic related: Kirk and Spock walk into a Andorian bar.... the bartender says, hey, we don't serve your kind. Kirk says, that's okay, we don't drink with yours. Spock says, has your local license been approved properly by the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 LOL. I heard that one before but it was with a Tellerite and an Andorian. c4 ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amnot Borg Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 Cool, I was just bull-sh!te-ing..... I thought we needed back on topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 I say we change the direction of this thread! From now on...it's Star Trek jokes. Good or otherwise... A Ferengi walks into a bar and orders a double scotch. He raises the glass to his lips but before he can drink he notices a Vulcan monkey hanging from the light overhead. He then sees the barkeep toss a hunk of wood at the monkey. The wood hits the monkey in the head. The monkey jumps from the overhead light, lands on the bar and procedes to give the barkeep a BJ. When done, the monkey cleans up the barkeep's willie and jumps back onto the overhead light. Only then does the Ferengi finish his drink. Looking at the barkeep he says "WOW. That was sumptin!" The barkeep asks "Wanna try it?" The Ferengi scratches his lobes and says: "Sure! Just don't hit me in the head so hard!" c4 :stare: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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