Philosophical Challange (for elderbear especially)

[maverick]

A wise man once said' date=' "don't take philisophical lessons from the dictionary."[/quote']

 

 

...yeah? which one?

[vystral]

well...you know...me...but it makes sense. The dictionary is not for philisophical discussion.

[werecow]

i dunno.... i took philoslophily in college and i started to get worried when i started to understand some of it actually the course was logic 101 intro to philsophily...started to fry some of my more delicate reasoning processors

[elderbear]

A wise man once said' date=' "don't take philisophical lessons from the dictionary."[/quote']

 

 

...yeah? which one?

 

Mirriam Webster? B)

[werecow]

Daniel Webster?????

[elderbear]

Daniel Webster?????

 

The dictionary publisher (Mirriam), not the legendary statesman and attorney (Daniel).

[GriFter]

42

[GeneralLee]

i dunno.... i took philoslophily in college and i started to get worried when i started to understand some of it actually the course was logic 101 intro to philsophily...started to fry some of my more delicate reasoning processors

 

LMFAO.... the same thing happened to me almost 30 years ago. Man that was some weird chit to swallow.... made me turn to 'shrooms, instead...

 

[maverick]

well...you know...me...but it makes sense. The dictionary is not for philisophical discussion.

 

hey you wanna know what a word means, look it up man.

 

then the hard part comes when you work out what it means to everyone else.

 

you wanna make a point using incorrect definitions you may as well not bother

[maverick]

Given the premises:

 

A) "Different cultures have different truths."

 

B) "A truth is that which can be accepted universally."

 

What are the implications for knowledge of agreeing with these opposing statements?

 

The truth about Truth

 

Part 1: Answering the question as given.

 

Two fairly trivial answers arise:

 

1) A and B contradict each other, and therefore do not form a meaningful basis for discourse.

 

2) In this context, A really posits that cultural truths are accepted universally within the specific culture that holds them. Thus, a universal truth (such as women give birth to babies) is one that is accepted within all cultures.

 

But, B has a severe problem. It is a terrible definition of truth. In 1450 CE, in most of the inland regions of the world, it was universally accepted that the earth was flat, even though Eratosthenes had demonstrated that it was at least sorta spherical over 1500 years earlier. Since this was a universally agreed upon proposition, by (B) it would be considered truth. Now, although there still exist flat earth society members, our truth is that the earth is round.

 

To whit, the universal acceptance of something is no guarantee that it will be true. It may be quite false! Truth must move beyond universal acceptance.

 

So these definitions are inadequate to define truth and thus a contradiction does not exist. In my next segment, I will begin to explore the nature of truth and Truth. This includes bits and pieces of epistemology and ontology as well as deductive and inductive reasoning. One question to act as a warm up is "What different types of "truth" might there be and how might they be experienced?"

 

i have to agree with some of this and i would quote myself if i could in response, with regard to the different types of truth. my first response to this thread mentions some similar points and concludes with different types of truth.

 

and in response to anyone who doesnt like my use of the dictionary......i am simply using it to make a point. you cant very well argue your point truthfully if you dont know what the hell ur talkin about

 

reason needs a starting point.

[elderbear]

A wise man once said' date=' "don't take philisophical lessons from the dictionary."[/quote']

 

Yeah, but a dictionary makes a handy projectile weapon in a philosophical argument!!! B)

[asmodeusca]

"Different cultures have different truths." "A truth is that which can be accepted universally." What are the implications for knowledge of agreeing with these opposing statements?

 

One implication is that "truth" can change with time as cultures decline and grow. Some "truth(s)" seem truer than others because they have been passed on through generations...sometimes even spanning cultures. However, it is all a function of time.

 

Also,

-"truth" is a function of knowledge.

- Knowledge is based on fact.

- Fact is decided by concensus.

 

Second implication is "truth" is a matter of opinion. General "truth" by popular opinion..personal "truth" the opinion of an individual.

 

I didn't deal with the concept of "absolute truth" as the initial statement excluded it in it's defn.

[svendopel]

The truth – that "all we perceive is mind made" is in the sound of the bell that You can hear.

 

The Truth is different for all, but the facts are the facts.

[asmodeusca]

I still maintain fact is by consesus. Even scientific fact is arrived at by procedures collectively accepted. The collective (pardon the pun) may be, and has been, reconsidered to be wrong.

 

In fact (again...the pun thing), fact and faith are different only in the method of acceptance.

[svendopel]

Yes fact is by consensus, but only because people are scared to face change unless of course their mates are holding their hands!!

 

[maverick]

Yes fact is by consensus, but only because people are scared to face change unless of course their mates are holding their hands!!

 

 

so....how does the truth fit in with meeting your emotional needs?

 

im sure that it can be agreed that truth has basis in emotion. after all if not for truth is it not possible that truth could be absolute.

 

 

god, has to be the biggest example of truth and different communities

 

basically how perceptions differ between social group is based on need, not fact.

 

so in that sense i would have to agree with asmodeusca. consensus. (almost) with religion people simply have to accept it and belive, but if asked what the truth is...........they may not know

 

 

 

rambling now. onto my last of three deadlines including dissertation this week.,.........anyone got a phaser, im ready to go on a roaring rampage B)

 

 

[svendopel]

Yes fact is by consensus, but only because people are scared to face change unless of course their mates are holding their hands!!

 

 

so....how does the truth fit in with meeting your emotional needs?

 

im sure that it can be agreed that truth has basis in emotion. after all if not for truth is it not possible that truth could be absolute.

 

 

god, has to be the biggest example of truth and different communities

 

basically how perceptions differ between social group is based on need, not fact.

 

so in that sense i would have to agree with asmodeusca. consensus. (almost) with religion people simply have to accept it and belive, but if asked what the truth is...........they may not know

 

 

 

rambling now. onto my last of three deadlines including dissertation this week.,.........anyone got a phaser, im ready to go on a roaring rampage B)

 

 

Haven't a clue what your smoking to keep awake but don't blow it in my direction!

 

[mcant]

an old kipling poem which is still relevant

 

 

Rudyard Kipling

Poems

 

IN THE NEOLITHIC AGE

 

 

In the Neolithic Age savage warfare did I wage

For food and fame and woolly horses' pelt;

I was singer to my clan in that dim, red Dawn of Man,

And I sang of all we fought and feared and felt.

 

Yea, I sang as now I sing, when the Prehistoric spring

Made the piled Biscayan ice-pack split and shove;

And the troll and gnome and dwerg, and the Gods of Cliff and Berg

Were about me and beneath me and above.

 

But a rival, of Solutr]/e, told the tribe my style was ~outr]/e~ --

'Neath a tomahawk of diorite he fell.

And I left my views on Art, barbed and tanged, below the heart

Of a mammothistic etcher at Grenelle.

 

Then I stripped them, scalp from skull, and my hunting dogs fed full,

And their teeth I threaded neatly on a thong;

And I wiped my mouth and said, "It is well that they are dead,

For I know my work is right and theirs was wrong."

 

But my Totem saw the shame; from his ridgepole shrine he came,

And he told me in a vision of the night: --

"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,

And every single one of them is right!"

 

. . . . .

 

Then the silence closed upon me till They put new clothing on me

Of whiter, weaker flesh and bone more frail;

And I stepped beneath Time's finger, once again a tribal singer

[And a minor poet certified by Tr--ll].

 

Still they skirmish to and fro, men my messmates on the snow,

When we headed off the aurochs turn for turn;

When the rich Allobrogenses never kept amanuenses,

And our only plots were piled in lakes at Berne.

 

Still a cultured Christian age sees us scuffle, squeak, and rage,

Still we pinch and slap and jabber, scratch and dirk;

Still we let our business slide -- as we dropped the half-dressed hide --

To show a fellow-savage how to work.

 

Still the world is wondrous large, -- seven seas from marge to marge, --

And it holds a vast of various kinds of man;

And the wildest dreams of Kew are the facts of Khatmandhu,

And the crimes of Clapham chaste in Martaban.

 

Here's my wisdom for your use, as I learned it when the moose

And the reindeer roared where Paris roars to-night: --

There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,

And -- every -- single -- one -- of -- them -- is -- right!

 

 

[maverick]

Yes fact is by consensus, but only because people are scared to face change unless of course their mates are holding their hands!!

 

 

so....how does the truth fit in with meeting your emotional needs?

 

im sure that it can be agreed that truth has basis in emotion. after all if not for truth is it not possible that truth could be absolute.

 

 

god, has to be the biggest example of truth and different communities

 

basically how perceptions differ between social group is based on need, not fact.

 

so in that sense i would have to agree with asmodeusca. consensus. (almost) with religion people simply have to accept it and belive, but if asked what the truth is...........they may not know

 

 

 

rambling now. onto my last of three deadlines including dissertation this week.,.........anyone got a phaser, im ready to go on a roaring rampage B)

 

 

Haven't a clue what your smoking to keep awake but don't blow it in my direction!

 

 

get stuffed, dopey :cyclops:

[maverick]

Yes fact is by consensus, but only because people are scared to face change unless of course their mates are holding their hands!!

 

 

dude how can a fact be by concensus?

 

a fact is provable and irrefutable.

 

if its not irrefutable, then its not a fact

 

 

if you dont know what a fact is i can lend you a dictionary ;)