Enterprise Question

[Cpt_Sugar]

In the Opening Credits You clearly see the Rear of an NX class Ship, That is not Enterprise NX01 ;).

 

Does anyone know what this ship is, Or if it was just an early prototype of the enterprise ship itself.

 

 

[TFMF]

It looks like an earlier version of the Enterprise before the NX class was developed

[teowind]

Well since the credits shows mankinds history of exploration, I guess it's just a step in that line, and perhaps as you say, an early prototype.

[dizzyg]

more than likely a pre-warp 5 ship. i immagine at low warp speeds earth wouldn't have done much major traveling.

[Tenebrae]

You say that but weren't those cargo ships traveling at some laughable speed that meant it took them 5 months to do what Enterprise could do in a day? Not that they ever really explained WHAT those ships were doing.

 

But yeah, it was probably the first "proper" warp ship, I imagine.

[Mav]

IIRC Warp 3 was the typical drive class for most human faring ships, cargo runs and such. They could easily hit Warp 2+ and we know Starfleet had Warp 3 engines. I think it was the step at the end of Warp 3 being used in the Fleet and the Warp 5 engine being introduced in the NX-01. Kind of like how at the end of Enterprise 8 years later, their ship is still a Warp 5 class drive but it's being decommissioned with the Warp 7 drive's being introduced.

 

Kinda strange how they always seemed to increase the maximum speed of a drive class by an odd number. Cochrane's ship was capable of Warp 1, then we have Warp 3 ships (maybe there were ships that couldn't exceed Warp 2.99~ between that time period?) and then Warp 5, then Warp 7 and by TOS time Warp 9 (least I think they had Warp 9 in TOS, wasn't a huge TOS fan compared to TNG and beyond).

[Tenebrae]

You're forgetting that TNG reset the whole warp scale. I think they changed it from linear to exponential... go look it up if you're interested but anyway, the difference was that warp speed in TOS wasn't "capped". In TNG warp 10 was infinite velocity - and contrary to what some cretins think, you can't go faster than infinite velocity because you can't ACHIEVE infinite velocity BY DEFINITION.

 

Of course, the TNG scale probably needs reset with people going "Yes we can cruise at warp 9.99999751232 and a bit."

 

I think the important thing to remember for the warp classes though is that a warp 5 ship - like NX-01 was a theoretical maximum. They never really go at more than 4.5 for any amount of time.

 

Anyway, you'll never get an answer more accurate than "something between Cochrane's warp ship and NX-01".

[Mav]

You're forgetting that TNG reset the whole warp scale. I think they changed it from linear to exponential... go look it up if you're interested but anyway, the difference was that warp speed in TOS wasn't "capped". In TNG warp 10 was infinite velocity - and contrary to what some cretins think, you can't go faster than infinite velocity because you can't ACHIEVE infinite velocity BY DEFINITION.

 

Of course, the TNG scale probably needs reset with people going "Yes we can cruise at warp 9.99999751232 and a bit."

 

I think the important thing to remember for the warp classes though is that a warp 5 ship - like NX-01 was a theoretical maximum. They never really go at more than 4.5 for any amount of time.

 

Anyway, you'll never get an answer more accurate than "something between Cochrane's warp ship and NX-01".

 

Ah but you're forgetting the metafactors like, the Caretakers array or Q snapping his fingers both of which can fling a Starship thousands of lightyears which I'd assume is faster than Warp 10 but not infinite velocity (based apon the results of "Threshold" ugh...) So we know faster than Warp 10 speed is achievable just not by Human/Federation scientific means really but they also changes at the end of Voyager cause you know at some point the Feds are gonna want Seven to help develop TransWarp and etc

 

I know the NX-01 could go faster than 4.5 they go to 4.9 several times. Granted the ship damn near starts falling apart due to stress on the hull but they manage 4.9 for short bursts of speed.

 

Ironically TNG reset Warp speeds in a different fashion, forget the episode name/season but the one where we find out Warp travel is ripping subspace apart and the Federation agrees to limit speeds to Warp 5. Of course most other non-Fed species don't follow this and even though faster than Warp 5 travel was permitted for emergencies, half the time they cruised faster than Warp 5 ;o especially in DS9 and Voyager so ignores that the entire 7 seasons ;p

[TetsuoShima]

Well, voyager had those 'special' nacelles. They were actually made to avoid breaking subspace, so they could go faster without doing damage. In case of the defiant, I guess it was because of the war. There was a rule somewhere that the 'speed limit' could be broken if it was an emergency...

 

After they found out about the whole subspace breaking thingy, they began designing engines slightly differently for Starfleet ships, so I think that even Enterprise-E is not bothered with it anymore. All older other ships should be subjected to the 'speed limit' though. That only leaves the other races... but hey, who cares that 99% of the galaxy doesn't care they're ripping up subspace. :p

[Tenebrae]

Hahaha - no. Threshold is NONSENSE. Everyone disowned it. It meant nothing.

 

Infinite velocity just means... nothing. It's by DEFINITION impossible to exceed. I mean, go look up infinite YOU CAN'T ACHIEVE INFINITY. If you want to argue more, go smack your head against a dictionary until you understand, boyo.

 

Travelling real fast means you're close to 10 but not actually AT 10. By definition.

 

And yes, TNG applied the whole warp speed thing... but that was only "until a solution could be found." If Voyager with 0 resources managed to defeat species 1234 in a double episode... seems fair that the Federation managed to not destroy subspace. Although - given the amount of Warp travel done, remarkable that never happened before.

 

Also - try reaching infinity. You start counting. I'll sit here and wait.

[Symok]

Continuing the Off-Topicness of this topic, the following is quoted from the TNG Tech Manual "commentary" section:

 

Figuring out how "fast" various warp speeds are was pretty complicated, but not just from a "scientific" viewpoint. First we had to satisfy the general fan expectation that the new ship was significantly faster than the original. Second, we had to work with Gene's recalibration, which put Warp 10 at the absolute top of teh scale. These first two constraints are fairly simple, but we quickly discovered that it was easy to make warp speeds TOO fast. Beyond a certain speed, we found that the ship would be able to cross the entire galaxy within a matter of just a few months. (Having the ship too fast would make the galaxy too small a place for the Star Trek format.) Finally, we had to provid some loophole for various powerful aliens like Q, who have a knack for tossing the ship millions of light years in the time of a commercial break. Our solution was to redraw the warp curve so that the exponent of the warp factor increases gradually, then sharply as you approach Warp 10. At Warp 10, the exponent (and the speed) wouldbe infinite, so you could never reach this value. (Mike used an Excel spreadsheet to calulate the speeds and times.) This lets Q and his friends have fun in the 0.0009+ range, but also lets our ship travel slowly enough to keep the galaxy a big place, and meets the other criteria. (By the way, we estimate that in "Where No On Has Gone Before", the Traveler was probably propelling the Enterprise at about Warp 9.9999999996. Good thing they were in the carpool lane

 

So, yes. Warp 10 == Impossible. "Threshold" == stupid.

 

There is a further comment later giving a comparison of warp speeds from TOS to TNG:

 

Oh, very well: THe current warp values are presumably much faster than those achieved by the original Enterprise in the first series, but the "old" and the "new " Warp 1 are the same, the speed of light. The "old" Warp 6 is about Warp 5 on the new scale. The (then) amazing speed of Warp 14, achieved by the first Enterprise under extreme duress in "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" now works out to around Warp 9.7, which the new ship achieved while fleeing Q during "Encounter at Farpoint"

 

There's probably some typos in those quotes, but I'm too tired right now to check.

[Tenebrae]

That kind of sucks, really - that would mean that there has hardly been any progress in terms of speed, except cruising speed.

 

They actually also say that they exceed warp 10 in "Where No One Has Gone Before." But then, their sensors could well have been foobared. Also, later in season 1... they indicate exceeding warp 10 leads to time travel.

[Mav]

It's all relative I'm telling ya. Look at how many alien races have the ability to move faster than Warp 10; The Q, the Borg, The Traveler (I don't know his race's name) etc While some may argue such thing's as Q's powers are more of a trait the species possess and not truly capable of speeds faster than Warp 9.99~ look at it this way; most of these species accomplish faster than Warp travel in various ways right? And if you broke them all down to analyze them even Q 's powers are based on some kind of laws of science. Just cause humans don't understand them yet doesn't mean that say, the Traveler isn't using both technology and knowledge to go faster than Warp 10.

 

On the other side I've wondered, what about the Future Enterprise-D? The one where Riker is the Captain and it has three Warp Nacells that can achieve Warp 13. Obviously an alternate universe and timeline but how come Starfleet hasn't tried strapping on a third engine or even a fourth? Stick on four of them, use three for flying and the fourth to help funnel power to stabilize structural integrity and the shields so the ship doesn't rip itself apart.

[Symok]

Mav: You're missing the point. According to the "current" warp scale, Warp 10 is impossible. INFINITE velocity. You would, litterally, occupy all points in the entire universe simultaneously. If the Traveler, Q, etc had actually sent the ship at Warp 10, there wouldn't have been the streaking effect on the screen and there wouldn't have been time for the "OMGWTFBBQ!!" as they were hurtling through space. It would have been instantaneous.

 

As for the Anti-Time future, obviously by then they had to re-do the Warp scale again, to avoid saying "Go to warp nine point nine nine nine nine nine."

[TetsuoShima]

Everything that is known about warp-speed calculation basically s#cks. It's just numbers in equations without any real meaning to it. The new warp scale was designed basically to come up with a 'magical number' (10), that cannot be crossed. The way they did it, is completely mathematical (the 10 = infinite part) and not very 'science' related, even for star trek. Especially the power usage scale and the peak power thresholds are rediculous...

 

 

It was done more for 'cosmetic' requirements, than for anything else and they kinda scewed up on it imo. There are even different ways to calculate warpspeed in the post TNG era and they don't all have the same results...

 

The reason for this:

 

Unlike TOS (where we have a formula but no scale), for TNG we have a scale but no formula! The reason for this is that the graph was drawn by Mike Okuda rather than calculated, as is related in the following:

 

----

On June 22, 1995, Jeff Reinecke forwarded the following letter from Michael Okuda to rec.arts.startrek.tech:

----

 

Date: Fri, Jan 27, 1995 02:09 AM EST

From: MOkuda

Subj: Re: Star Trek Warp

To: Yar of Spit

 

 

The warp factors we've used in ST:TNG were computed in an arbitrary way to fit some specific characteristics we needed.

 

First, the speed for any given warp factor had to be greater than it was in the original Star Trek series. This was primarily to satisfy fan expectations.

 

Second, the new warp speeds couldn't be TOO much faster, or it would be possible for the ship to cross the galaxy in a fairly brief time. (In a way, maintaining this restriction made Voyager's story situation possible. If we hadn't done this, Voyager could have gotten home too quickly.)

 

We used an exponent of (I think) 3.33 or 3.33333... for warp factors less than 9.

 

Between 9 and 10, I gradually increased the exponent so that it approached infinity as the warp factor approached 10. Lacking knowledge of calculus, I just drew what looked to me to be a credible curve on graph paper, then pulled the points from there. I think I re-created the curve fairly accurately in the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual.

 

Hope this helps.

 

-Mike

 

 

So there you have it, the new warp scale s#cks.... Even if they did have a formula it would s#ck, since there would be no consistency between below and above warp 9... Not a nice function at all....

[TetsuoShima]

 

for clarity (black background), i reposted the graph again

[Tenebrae]

Yeah, the scale was pretty stupid and meant they'd have to redo the scale... I mean by Voyager it was obviously getting toward necessary. It also becomes increasingly perplexing as to why people would bother wasting time at anything LESS than high warp.

 

And yes, why oh why can't people understand this - infinity isn't something you can surpass because you can't reach it because it's not a point.

[TetsuoShima]

hehe, well purely theoretical and mathematically speaking, from a 'limit' (mathematical) pov, you could say that infinity² is bigger than infinity (though the statement would not be quite correct just like that). But that would be adding philosophy to mathematics and who knows where we might end up once we start doing that. :p

[Tenebrae]

Well, sure - you can have higher orders of infinity, that's a simple mathematical fact. The obvious example. There are twice as many multiples of 2 as there are multiples of 4. There are an infinite number of both... but one is more... still, let's not bogged down in infinity. It makes brains explode.