Arktis Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 ***Warning! Spoilers. Since Dukat is such a key player on the show, this topic will probably span through plot points that are extremely pivotal to the DS9 storyline.*** Due to a recent side-discussion about Ducat in another thread, I wanted to devote an entire topic to him. I've always thought Dukat was an interesting character. Here is a man that is so deluded that when he is confronted with his own misconceptions, begins to self-destruct. He is a person who's selfish ego is built on a house of cards, and is unable to escape this character flaw, no matter how many times he is forced to mentally reconstruct himself. Because of this, often times one cannot judge his character based on his words or actions. There is a sort of psuedo-psychology you have to apply in order to create a mental model of just who this guy is and what makes him tick. I don't know exactly where/when within the DS9 story to begin this discussion, so I guess I will leave that up to the next poster. I will suggest that judging from the side-discussion in that other thread I mentioned above, Ducat's actions regarding his daughter seem to be a good point of interest. There are so many other excellent examples of Ducat's mania though, and all are very interesting, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 Well we know Cardassians are good at deception so i'm wondering if all the sympathy he showed where he would say how he regretted the occupation might have been fake On the other hand - i think his feelings for his daughter were genuine - i mean he sacraficed his position to be with her.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 Sympathy for victims of the occupation? Yes, it was a by-product of his inflated self-image as the benevolent ruler, tragicly hampered by the stupidity, hatred, and brutality of his subjects. I think that was made very clear later on in the series... in the episode that Dukat and Sisko get marooned, and in the one in which Kira time travels to the occupation. Watch those and tell me you don't see it... As for Ziyal... I don't believe he really loved her. I mean, I can see how he likely spared her life because of Kira. He obviously was very attracted to the Major (as he was with her mother), was getting along with her better than ever at the time, and wanted her respect - she constantly challenged his delusions of greatness/blamelessness, and for him, to posess her would be to prove himself a great man, in a similar fashion to the way he had posessed her mother (he manipulates other people's viewpoints to suit what he wants to believe about himself). Due to that act, he lost everything... except for Ziyal (and a bit of recognition from Kira, which he obviously wanted), who was clingy, quick with praise and extremely forgiving. She had to be... she was naive and didn't have anyone else - except for Kira, who was very fond of her. So then Ziyal became a way for Dukat to get to Kira, and he of course tried to exploit this. But we saw the true value she had when Dukat abandoned her to carry out his own assault on the station. It was only when he once again had lost everything that he came back to Ziyal - the one thing he had left; a comforting, always forgiving, always loving, easily manipulated daughter who by no fault of her own actually loved him. It was then that he realized what her real value to him was; she was something he needed in those last moments. But then of course he lost her too, driving him mad. His egomania could no longer support itself because he was now a complete failure - no family, no success, no status, disgraced, etc. I don't really have the clarity of thought right now to delve into this entirely, but I trust you can see that there are some nuances here that are being overlooked; that's why I started this topic. It's very interesting to me, the psychology of it. Maybe these things are already obvious, maybe I'm full of $#!+... Personally, I think Kira is what really destroyed Dukat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 I found him to be a very interesting and multifaceted character. Which means he confused the hell outta me at times. :p Just when I'd think he was a good soul (deep down inside), he'd turn on a dime and do something to dispell that notion. All in all, I believe he added another dimention to DS9. The way he and Garak played off each other was especially fun to watch! c4 :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 I agree! I enjoyed watching Dukat hold Garak over the railings above the promenade. :p BUT! What say you about my above post? You think I'm onto something, or just blowing hot air? That's really why I made this topic. I wanted to discuss this character in-depth. Although now that you bring up Garak... I guess that's just as interesting to me. I really loved that character on so many levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Well, if you mean "what do I really think/feel about Dukat" then I'd have to say he was a lying, cheating, rat baseturd (and I'm being kind I believe). :p Good topic! One for Garak would be great as well... Oh...BTW...if someone had killed my daughter...I would have tracked them across the universe (and the MU too) and DESTROYED them (after peeling every inch of skin from their bones first of course!). c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 Well, that's not what I meant... but thanks anyways. Yeah, a topic about Garak would be great. You should start one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Hmmmm.....i really don't think Dukat had any feelings towards Kira - and i think he genuinly cared about Ziyal - i mean he sacraficed his position and took her with him when he was reduced to commanding a cargo ship. He had the opertunity to kill her the first time he saw her but chose not to and you saw how distraught he was when Damar killed Ziyal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 Hmmmm.....i really don't think Dukat had any feelings towards Kira Really? Wow... were we watching the same show? Lol. ;) Ducat was always making advances towards Kira, most times very creepily, once quite charmingly (remember the trip they made to the mines when he got a pointy rock in his butt? I laughed my ass off. Okay, maybe I have a strange idea of what charming is...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Yeah i know - i saw the advances but i think they were fake Dukat said "Goodbye Major - you and i on the same side - never did seem right" or somthing like that when he Joined the Dominion and the way he said it i just thought it was his true feelings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 The guy changes feelings faster than you can say *insert random noise here*. So, you could both be right. He was an interesting character, but ultimately he only served one purpose: his own self. He was the personification of all that was and still is going wrong in the world... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 Yeah i know - i saw the advances but i think they were fake Dukat said "Goodbye Major - you and i on the same side - never did seem right" or somthing like that when he Joined the Dominion and the way he said it i just thought it was his true feelings Nice point, but I think he said that because basicly he was just trying to mess with Kira's head as he often did (try), as well as bolster his ego towards his new position. Tetsuo: I mostly agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 Hmmmm.....i really don't think Dukat had any feelings towards Kira - and i think he genuinly cared about Ziyal - i mean he sacraficed his position and took her with him when he was reduced to commanding a cargo ship. He had the opertunity to kill her the first time he saw her but chose not to and you saw how distraught he was when Damar killed Ziyal Why didn't he kill the rat that killed his daughter? That one still bothers me! c4 :thinking: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 At the time i think he was too paralized to do anything about it I think the Pah Wraiths may have had somthing to do with Dukat not killing him later on - he seemed more forgiving after he encountered them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slug Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 Now you come to mention it, he's probably the only real example of Trek creating truely adult orientated 3-dimensional antagonists, the sort that just don't work in the movies. The key episode is the one where he and Sisko are trapped on that planet, I think its 'Waltz,' it shows Kira as being his need to be judged well by others, her opinion being the deciding one. This episode was written by Ronald D. Moore and it would seem that the idea of the tormented man with blood on his hands hallucinating a strong female judge of character that he's obsessed with which would go on to be a main plotline in Galactica originated here, or this is an early example of Moore being interested in such an idea. With regards to his actions at the time the Dominion joined Cardassia I think you need to judge his actions in context, making the distinction between plot led story lines and character led storylines, this is quite definitely a storyline primarily formulated to further the plot of the show rather than the character of Dukat himself. You might say that this is an example of both plot and character development, but that would miss the point that any event in a TV show is usually primarily motivated by one or other of these things, Dukat going with the Dominion was a plot based storyline, his character was shaped afterwards to make his decision plausable. Its not that he was necesaraly acting out of character when this happened, its just that his character was not the issue at hand in the scripting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 Well i thought the purpose of Dukat getting Sisko and him alone in the cave was so that Dukat could find out What Sisko thought of his actions I think that's what it all came down to in DS9 - the battle between Dukat and Sisko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 Oh, come on. It's clear that Dukat and Sisko were simply personifications of the battle between the Dominion and the Federation et al - and in a greater (but more general sense) the eternal struggle between good and evil. Now - I've always joked that Dukat tooed and froed between good and evil (turns out your problem was your Gul Dukat was set on Evil)... but he was an interesting character. However, I think that he was pretty much self-interested. He always played the "good guy" when he was the underdog... Anyway, I think even his "repenting" was self-serving. Dukat did it, not because he thought it was the RIGHT thing to do but because he wanted to make himself FEEL better. I don't think the man had a moral compass... he generally did what he thought would be best for him... but that was coupled with a desire to be respected by his adversaries. His attempts to seduce Kira were a logical extension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 If he was doing everything to benifit himself then why did he keep his daughter alive at the expensive of his status on Cardassia - we saw that his daughter was his biggest downfall in the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 That's true but he was going to kill her to start with... in any event, I think Ziyal was probably his only "weakness" I suppose. I'm not sure I'd say she was his biggest downfall though, she caused him trouble but he bounced back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 Depends Dukat saved his daughter - got busted down to freighter captain Damar Killed Ziyal - Got so distraught - he was left behind during the evacuation But then yeah i suppose he did get into the Pah Wraith cult so did kind of bounce back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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