Religion

[Pella]

Gravity isn't really intangible... it can be measured' date=' after all, and we know many of it's properties even if it can't be seen. It's there, it's measurable, so faith isn't required... it's more in the tangible (in the measurable sense) and partly known category.[/quote']

 

We may know many of it's propeties, but not all.

 

It has no physical substance that we are aware of. We can measure the effects of gravity such as how quickly one body of mass is drawn to a greater body of mass and thus calculate the relative force, but we can't measure gravity itself because there is nothing to measure.

 

Also we know what is does and how it works, but why does it exist? What is it's purpose?

 

 

Of course this isn't an argument on the existance of gravity. The point I'm trying to make is even the the most dedicate Aetheist believes in my many intangible things everyday. Why, because he or she KNOWs them to be true.

 

Another Example: America.

I have never been to America. I don't know anyone to who has. None of my 5 senses have ever percieved America. I've seen pictures (as I've seen pictures of various Gods) and I've seen (and measured) the effects of America (just as I've seen the effects of my God), but I've never experienced it. But I KNOW it exists, but for all I know it's 50 miles south of London.

 

Of course, i'm being a bit silly, of course I know America exists. but How do I know? In my reality, it's just as intangible

as gravity or God. it just blind faith on my part.

 

[S0V13T]

*Dresses up as a pirate*

 

I'm deeply religious, and I find this entire thread to be an insulting farce. I think that some of you heathens, and heretics should read up on My religion and embrace the love of the Flying Spagetti Monster.

 

imModerator Note!!!

 

OK. All participants in this thread - even those who have read it are to be banished to "The Borg" group!

[Pella]

*Dresses up as a pirate*

 

I'm deeply religious, and I find this entire thread to be an insulting farce. I think that some of you heathens, and heretics should read up on My religion and embrace the love of the Flying Spagetti Monster.

 

Arrrrr matey. Arrrrr

 

I does bow to your superior concept of religion Cap'ain and shall call you 'Your noodleship' from now on :p

[GorunNova]

Also we know what is does and how it works, but why does it exist? What is it's purpose?

 

I'm not sure anything really has a purpose, if you mean the sort of purpose that I think you mean ^_^ Purpose is as relative as time.

 

Edit: Besides, isn't gravity mass-induced curvature in spacetime?

[wahaha]

S0V13T,

 

You have attacked me, and your children will pay for it..

 

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-hinn-enemies-will-pay.wav

[Pella]

Also we know what is does and how it works, but why does it exist? What is it's purpose?

 

I'm not sure anything really has a purpose, if you mean the sort of purpose that I think you mean ^_^ Purpose is as relative as time.

 

Edit: Besides, isn't gravity mass-induced curvature in spacetime?

 

I edited my above slightly, sorry I should have sone a new post. Like I ssay I don't disbelive in gravity. that's not the point I was trying to make.

[Pella]

EDit reposted for clariity sake -

 

Of course this isn't an argument on the existance of gravity. The point I'm trying to make is even the the most dedicate Aetheist believes in my many intangible things everyday. Why, because he or she KNOWs them to be true.

 

Another Example: America.

I have never been to America. I don't know anyone to who has. None of my 5 senses have ever percieved America. I've seen pictures (as I've seen pictures of various Gods) and I've seen (and measured) the effects of America (just as I've seen the effects of my God), but I've never experienced it. But I KNOW it exists, but for all I know it's 50 miles south of London.

 

Of course, i'm being a bit silly, of course I know America exists. but How do I know? In my reality, it's just as intangible

as gravity or God. You could say it's just blind faith on my part.

 

[Pella]

Also we know what is does and how it works, but why does it exist? What is it's purpose?

 

I'm not sure anything really has a purpose, if you mean the sort of purpose that I think you mean ^_^ Purpose is as relative as time.

 

I believe the purpose of gravity is keep the universe together and stop everything flying apart. The big question, however, is why keep the universe from flying apart.

 

Edit: Besides, isn't gravity mass-induced curvature in spacetime?

 

Yes, it is, as, time is another intangible (it's not made of anything and our five senses can't percieve it - we can only measure and percieve the effects, but we know it exists) but by trying to dispprove what I'm saying, your missing the point of what I'm saying.

[GorunNova]

Yes, it is, as, time is another intangible (it's not made of anything and our five senses can't percieve it - we can only measure and percieve the effects, but we know it exists) but by trying to dispprove what I'm saying, your missing the point of what I'm saying.

 

... actually, I think we simply have different perspectives on the same things ^^...It's not so much missing the point, as in having such different views that what is being said is lost in translation.

 

I see time as a dimension exactly like length, width, and height, and gravity as an exertion of a quantity of energy on all those dimensions in a purely geometrical fashion, causing distortion. They aren't intangible at all, and are well defined and heavily observed properties of the structure of space time, visible in their own way just as the conventional three spacial dimensions are seen by our eyes. I assume you don't see it that way?

[Pella]

Yes, it is, as, time is another intangible (it's not made of anything and our five senses can't percieve it - we can only measure and percieve the effects, but we know it exists) but by trying to dispprove what I'm saying, your missing the point of what I'm saying.

 

... actually, I think we simply have different perspectives on the same things ^^...It's not so much missing the point, as in having such different views that what is being said is lost in translation.

 

I see time as a dimension exactly like length, width, and height, and gravity as an exertion of a quantity of energy on all those dimensions in a purely geometrical fashion, causing distortion. They aren't intangible at all, and are well defined and heavily observed properties of the structure of space time, visible in their own way just as the conventional three spacial dimensions are seen by our eyes. I assume you don't see it that way?

 

I do and I don't. The key phrase to me what you said above with regards to time and gravity is 'heavily observed properties'.

 

We can observe the effects they have and we know they exist, but what are they? What are made of? nothing.absolutely nothing.

 

Physically at least they are intangible. In the same way as America is in my other example. You asked me why we (as in people with faith) bother to believe in unknowns and intangibles? My answer is because we take certain intangibles for granted because we KNOW they exist. In exactly the same way we (again people with any sort of faith) know or various ideas of God exists. I believe that I see the effects of God everyday (again I use the masculine noun for convienence only)

 

From where I am (i hope you don't take this as an insult because it's not meant that way.At All) You are someone with unshakable faith (or blind faith) - faith in what you consider to be the truth i.e that which is quantifiable(spelling?). However somethings you belive in are physically nothing so how do you know they are there, and it's not something else causing those observed effects (the hand of God - lol)that have painstakingly measured.

 

What i'm saying is your ideas aren't wrong and I agree with many of them, what I'm saying is from my pointof view it's only half of the picture.

 

Of course I agree they exist but knowing something exist is only the first step for a scientist. Followed with how?What?When? and why?

[GorunNova]

You can 'see' light with your eyes, 'see' sound with your ears, and 'see' gravity by weight... there's no real difference between them. Why trust weight less than light? It's consistant, and we can use it to see the mass of objects like we see their colours with our eyes. Similarly, we can see time pass with our watches... just because it's not a sense we were born with, does that make it worthless?

[Pella]

You can 'see' light with your eyes' date=' 'see' sound with your ears, and 'see' gravity by weight... there's no real difference between them. Why trust weight less than light? It's consistant, and we can use it to see the mass of objects like we see their colours with our eyes. Similarly, we can see time pass with our watches... just because it's not a sense we were born with, does that make it worthless? [/quote']

 

You've pretty much just made my point for me. Especially on last sentence. Just beacuse we weren't born with the sense to 'see' God does it make the concept worthless?

 

or if we have the senses, what if like my America, it out of range of my perception>?

[GorunNova]

Now that's just twisting my words -_-'... God isn't a concept like gravity or light... it's too nebulous. Gravity and light are strictly defined, while God means anything to anybody.

[hartnell114]

religion...well lets nt get profound, its anything but.

God was created by all people everywhere, people from all walks of life, cultures belive in some kind of a god its as simple as that, but ask yourself, why do they belive in a god?

there are reasons and maybe you can draw your own , people do it because they belive their existance cant be a co-insidance, they belive something must have made everything else and that this creation must go round full circle, hence the question who created god, and who created him/her and so on...

people may also belive in god so that they can belive they have something to look foward to in the end, there is no religion that teaches that all people will go to hell no matter what, they all promise peace and tranquillity and what ever you desire (lets not go into devil worshipers, i say that because i cant remember or spell the name for it!!!)

 

and people say well if this is true then explain a miracle.

well a miracle is something that cant be explained so it must be of a higher power ie God, again not true, as we as people evolve, as we do so does our understanding of the world around us, as we evolve so does our knowlage ie our science, and as we continue to evolve one day we will be able to explain all the things today that we call miracles.

 

(*also what some call miracles can also be co-insidances, its as simple as that and although some people choose not to belive this, its true, and very often people dont see the obvious path, the see only whats in their minds eye, religion...god (s).

 

 

I am a christian (Church Of England)

My mother the same and my father a catholic, they would agree with me and so do alot of people all over the world, it may be easy for some to find flaws in what i have written although i will be willing to explain everything if you ask of it, i talk as an A level RE studant, finished my examinations, and although you may say , yes well he is young just remember this, oldeer does not nessacarily mean wiser.

 

 

8oh and you ask, well how was life created?

well...

A collection of frozen acids came from comets/metiors, these acids occur naturally and as they fell to our planet (The Earth) they melted and mixed into eachother, forming a stage 1 chemical reaction, then the impact of the comet.metior (etc) forced these acids to be bonded (this has been proven by labs in america) the resulting chemical was an ammino acid...the very basic builing block of life, without which ,none of us would exist.

 

 

[Pella]

Now that's just twisting my words -_-'... God isn't a concept like gravity or light... it's too nebulous. Gravity and light are strictly defined' date=' while God means anything to anybody.[/quote']

 

I'm not trying to twist your words, and God isn't like time or gravity except in one respect; She is physically intangible, but just like time and gravity you can see her effects (however, what are seen as her affects are what causes the debate, in deed her very gender does - many religions would find this sentence blasphemous. ANother reason not to believe in formalized religion :().

 

Unfortunately this my last post of the night - got to sleep, I hope we can carry on this discussion tmoro, because I'll admit I'm totally enjoying it. G'night, God(dess) bless - sorry couldn't resist :p

[GorunNova]

... and same back ^^... I really miss this sort of discussion :D

 

... if everyone with a concept of a deity believed in your Goddess then I could accept it as on par with gravity and light, but since every single person has a different God/Goddess/Spirit/Flying Spaghetti Monster with wildly different abilities and properties...

[wahaha]

Perhaps God is an IT, not a HE or SHE.

 

And you have to ask, how did those amino acids get there in the first place? How did they come into existence in the physical? What came first, the chicken or the egg? Obviously the chicken came first because it has to lay an egg.

 

Human babies cannot survive without mothers milk, so the mother had to be created first. You expect them to take down the nearest buffalo and eat some BBQ without teeth or gum some grass for calcium? There had to be an adult there with some degree of instinct and knowledge to care for the helpless infant.

 

A skyscraper has to be built from the ground up.. it just doesn't get there fully formed because some mud and steel decided to ooze from the ground and form itself into a building. Those materials had to be mined and processed by a creator.

[S0V13T]

... and same back ^^... I really miss this sort of discussion :D

 

... if everyone with a concept of a deity believed in your Goddess then I could accept it as on par with gravity and light, but since every single person has a different God/Goddess/Spirit/Flying Spaghetti Monster with wildly different abilities and properties...

 

*dressed as a pirate*

 

I forgive your blasphemy.

[maverick]

Wow dudes, where to begin!

 

... but why, pray tell, is religion necessary for "functioning daily as a human being"? You state that's the case, but don't say why you think it IS the case...

I don’t think anyone said it was necessary, simply preferable.

 

The reason differs for everyone as to WHY they find religion necessary. Im sure there are millions of people who practice without meaning because they do so out of habit or family tradition and also many who also practice their religion without questioning the benefits.

 

I believe that religion is an expression and/or practice of an individuals faith. Can it truly be said that each person who practices a religion has a faith?

If not, what need is it meeting. So, for example if GorunNova were to practice a religion he would first have to have a faith in something to give his religion (when I use this term it is meant as described above) true personal meaning and personal value.

 

He went on to say….

 

I think that regardless of the excuses and the rationales, all strength does come from within the person themselves... it's just that much easier to wield when you tell yourself that strength isn't really yours, when it has been there all the time waiting to be used by you. Faith can be a catalyst, but I think that strength was there all the time.

 

I believe that strength does come from within. I think everyone has the POTENTIAL to create and have great strength within themselves.

Faith can be a way to it perhaps.

I believe that religion as well as faith can be appreciated on many levels but I think they both meet an emotional need.

 

For some individuals faith may bring a sense of size or place and a feeling of belonging. Depending on what the individual believes in of course, but also assists with self actualisation. Understanding oneself.

 

Others require security perhaps. Knowing what they do is right and judging it by the rules of their religion.

 

Others may need a sense of community that they find in their religious community.

 

Whatever the reason for subscribing to a religion, due to the very nature of humans, it meets an emotional need.

 

Just the same as not following a path or religion may also meet an emotional need.

 

All I'm saying is... why bother with the catalyst when that strength is there regardless?

 

If the strength is there, managing that much strength/power may cause some people a problem. Where does the strength/power flow from?

How does a person use it?

How does an individual control it?

Can this power destroy an individual who does not know how to control it?

 

So, if the strength or the potential is already there then a means of focussing it would be advisable?

Also, if you can develop the ability to channel strength and power rather than build it wouldn’t that be better?

 

 

... and why believe the intangible and unknown when 1) there's plenty of tangible and known to believe in, and 2) there's also a lot of tangible and unknown waiting to become known. The intangible, being intangible, can wait and can't BE known yet, imho, and anyone can make up any amount of arbitrary intangible without ever being accountable for it...

 

 

Each religion uses concepts we understand to express the intangible. The Void or ‘God’ or whatever and then use stories to aid understanding of other concepts.

And as for the intangible being intangible……..(whew!) then that comes down to belief. The stories don’t have to be accurate to fully understand the message tho and a certain amount of leeway should be given to a religion which is very old.

 

If you want a faith ask yourself what you want and design your own. Or look around and find one that suits you.

 

Personally I have a hard time with religions. The concepts are fairly standard throughout, but my spirituality is so deeply personal I have a hard time expressing it to others.

 

….as an aside

 

If Mr. Data were to practice religion he would most likely write a sub-routine and integrate it with his programming, essentially making it a part of who he was. (please don’t debate the data issue with me its just an example)

Perhaps faith and religion has also a much deeper effect than simply being something people do. It is part of who a person is.

 

 

[Pella]

Perhaps God is an IT, not a HE or SHE.

 

Quite possibly. I refer to God as She because it makes sense to me. The way the big bang is often described as parallels to a birth and it is the female that gives birth. Apart from sea horses.

 

Maybe God is a sea horse :cyclops: