mcant Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 What this topic really needs is a poll. ROFL Nooooo, don't even go there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elderbear Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 NO! no special rights for monorities! if the law is inadaquete then change the law as it applies to everyone, not apply some plaster over the wound patch. thats the microsoft solution This whole hate crime business pisses me off, how can a white murdering a black be a hate crime, if the victim was white would it have been a friendly murder? I have already been accused of being to logical to make laws! B) And the existing hate crime laws are badly written. Here's where they could be quite useful, though: A black family moves into a white neighborhood. A bunch of KKK types burn a cross on their lawn. Without hate crime laws, this could only be charged as a bunch of minor infractions: trespassing, setting a fire without a permit, petty vandalism, etc. The ideal hate crime law would allow this to be prosecuted as a serious crime (heavy duty misdemeanor or light weight felony), since it is a much more serious act than simple trespass, vandalism, or malicious mischief. To me, that makes sense. Perhaps even allowing a felony to be pushed up a notch if a hate crime can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (not simply a white murdering a black, but solid evidence proving that the murder was based on race). Move 1st Degree Murder up to 1st Degree Murder with Special Circumstances, or adding a 10% additional sentence to be served. I knew a white man who purposely rear-ended a black man at low speeds. It had nothing to do with race - it was all about road rage. The DA tried to add a third strike for the racial aspect. With a good attorney, the perpetrator got off with making financial restitution, 52 hours of anger management, and an expunged record. A much better result than giving the guy three strikes! (Assault with a deadly weapon, Vehicular Assault, Leaving the Scene of an Accident + Hate Crime) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcant Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 I can also give you a racial harrasment case, a women charged with racially harressing her muslim nighbours by having a set of china pigs on her windowsill! Where do you draw the line? actually with your above scenario you could stretch the charges to include arson with intent, in this country that carries a life sentence. so the laws do exist, personally I'ld be delighted if the black family just shot the crap out of them, but thats just a persoal opinion I'm only bigotted against bigots B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 And Von' date=' last time I checked Vampire Warlocks were an [b']extreme[/b] minority ... what happens if the general populace decides that you are a deviant and a perversion?!? That's a very good point! ......Let's explore that a bit. Do you see any of my kind demanding special rights? .....Nope. Nor do I see your kind deprived of any rights (except in some states below the Bible Belt, where I understand laws forbidding "witchcraft" are still on the books - local prosecutors would probably consider a Warlock a male witch ... but don't worry, the Constitution protects you. It does not protect the rights of gay people. It's been only recently that the rights of gays to couple in the privacy of their own homes has been decriminalized!!! That's not a special right! Many states have had to create "special rights" for gay couples because they define marriage in a narrow sense, hence the spate of "civil union" laws to allow gay couples to have some of the same rights that breeder couples have. And while registered couples now have some assurance about inheritance and medical visitation, they are denied the full rights and responsibilities of a married couple. They are discriminated against by tax codes, care for child custody in the event of a dissolution is not taken. Allowing gays to marry would take away the need for the "special" rights of civil unions. And legal protection from gay bashers and harrassment. Is that a "special right?" The right to be secure in their persons is guaranteed by the constitution. Hate crime statutes do little to increase the penalties for people who have already committed a serious crime - but they can turn vicious harrassment into a serious crime. That "special right" goes out to lots of minorities who are persecuted by spiteful, fearful people. It gives the the right to enjoy a lifestyle more like the rest of us - free from fear. Is this a special right? NO! When folks like Matthew Shepard don't have to fear, then they won't need special laws in order to enjoy the same right to freedom from fear that the majority has. Do you see us attempting to force our lifestyle upon others? .....Nope. See my post above about NOT being forced into a gay lifestyle when I was in the minority. Can you give me a personal example of a gay or lesbian who attempted to recruit you with any more fortitude than you've ever used when trying to get a date or to first base? Homosexuals aren't trying to force their lifestyle on anybody - they're trying to get the space to be themselves without being killed, beaten, slandered, intimidated, or otherwise discriminated against. Those aren't special rights - they're not forcing a lifestyle on anybody - it's the attempt to get others to stop forcing them NOT to have their normal lives. Are we putting books into schools for kindergarten children to read, in the hope they will consider us "normal"? .....Nope. I seriously doubt that you Vampire Klingon Warlocks are. But the libraries are full of books that promote the WASP lifestyle as the norm. It's a problem for some kids who don't see themselves or their families fitting in. Making books available to children has two beneficial effects: 1) It helps eliminate fear and prejudice. 2) It helps children who know that they're different feel less alone and despondent. Most of the gay and lesbian people I've known knew that they were "different" before the age of 7. Most of them had no idea what that meant, and found it strongly disturbing. Some of them found it so disturbing that they attempted suicide in early adolescence. A few good books might have made a huge difference. Books for children just might promote toleration and help bigotry decrease so that gay bashing and murders can stop some day. Have we marched on Washington DC? .....Nope. What's your point? Lots of affinity groups have marched on Washington, DC. That's good citizenship, exercising your right to peaceably assemble, to petition the Government for a redress of grievances! This makes them patriots. Gays: 1, Klingon Vampire Warlocks: 0 Do we constantly harp about being misunderstood, or how Hollywierd portrays us? .....No. As a 100% Certified NERD, I constantly harp about how Hollywood portrays us. How many people voted in favor of the Fox "News" clip about the Trek United effort? How many found it annoying or offensive? The whole point of life is playing the cards your given, not constantly trying to bribe the dealer into giving you a new set of cards. .......Playing the game your delt will get you far more respect & honor in the long run. Most homosexual people (that I know) don't try to bribe the dealer for a new set of cards. They simply want to be allowed to play their hand with the others and using the same rules. You're right - playing the game you're dealt will get you far more respect and honor in the long run - and trying to stop others from accessing the card table, or having as many cards as you have in your hand is dishonorable, anti-social, and evil. It's not the pre-Bush American Way. I salute you Rear Admiral Elderbear... Well thought out and expressed. A clear, consise statement. Why aren't you in office..? c4 :thinking: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 Many states have had to create "special rights" for gay couples because they define marriage in a narrow sense, hence the spate of "civil union" laws to allow gay couples to have some of the same rights that breeder couples have. And while registered couples now have some assurance about inheritance and medical visitation, they are denied the full rights and responsibilities of a married couple. They are discriminated against by tax codes, care for child custody in the event of a dissolution is not taken. Allowing gays to marry would take away the need for the "special" rights of civil unions. Right isnt marriage suposed to be a bonding in the eyes of the church and goh? Most religions do not approve of gay marriages for example Cathoics which i am totally and 100% approve and no I am not catholic before anyone asks lol. Secondly it is also wrong for them to raise a child or foster a child, mainly becuase it would leave the child wide open to verbal abuse from other childern and bullying...is that fair on the child??. Not to mention it is not a proper family unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 sorry i missed off one other point. Even thou other people views differ. I personally do belive that homosexual should be allowed to get on with there lifes without being targeted for abuse or attacks. My views are not targetted at any indivials but about the topic it self Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolcat13 Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 as a "gay sympathiser" I find some of the responses here quite disturbing .The rights of any and all minorites should be protected.The rights of the majority are assured because they are the majority of the people It is our duty to protect every person wether they are Jewish,Muslim,Christian, or whether they are white ,black,Asian or hispanic or whether they are heterosexual, bi- sexual or homosexual. it may stick in some of your craws that there are marches for rights .it may not be appealing to you that a gay couple be married the same as you.they may be "nauseating" to you like cabbage or what ever but tough when we lose our humanity and treat any one as a lesser for what we consider to be immoral behavior then we are no better than animals.we are supposed to be civilised but where are we headed when we can not tolerate our brethern for thier desires or compassion whether sexually or religously or racially (culturally). you can sugar coat it alkl you would like but anything short of acceptence is bigotry and hate .It is our duty as human biengs to protect those who are oppressed or singled out . I agree that the line should and has to be drawn to protect the majority as well but that line is best drawn by allowing others to be free .as long as you are free as well topic # 1 Gay Marriage - how this is destroying families is beyond me . Maybe the 60 % divorce rate has a bigger impact on destroying marriage as an institution than does the inclusion of gays to be allowed marriage .to win this point map out precisely how gay marriage is a bad thing with out just saying it is as the neo cons often do topic # 2 laws involving hate crimes - there has to be conclusive proof that the motivation of a crime was racial etc the charge has to be substantiated and can be fought and beaten in a court of law if there is no proof that a crime was indeed motivated by hate topic #3 gay trek / gay characters on TV - if it sells to the target audience then go with it if it is opposed by the target audience then scrap it . no one should have a culture forced on them either. this will breed resentment and back lash .the producers no if it is something that will help or hurt thier ratings with all the testing they do . topic # 4 bieng around gay people - I posted this in the gay str8 thread about my best friend who was gay .I had no idea and I would hardly say that bieng around him was the same as bieng around cooking cabbage.I would probably venture to say that many of you have been around gay people and not known it . They are indeed just like us for the most part . sure there are gays who are more opened about it just like there are men who are open womanisers.A rather large majority of them however just want to be left alone to enjoy thier life . How do I know this because I dialogue with them and treat them as the human biengs that they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezigues Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 Excuse me for dropping in like that (I even didnt read all these pages in this topic: this one was enouth for me!!!), but I have a question: Wtf homosexuality (or sexuality, by the way) has to do with Star Trek???? I find really amazing that each post about that is 8 pages long... Guys: come back to reality: ST isnt about sex or love or whatever u want to call it: it's about science fiction, stars, future, ect... My question is: why the pple who are gay here just dont meet on some other board about homosexuality to chat about that? Does every young pple that likes Star Trek and is registered here really have to see posts where some talk about (bleep) or (bleep)? (and I bet there's munch more since this is only what we can see on this page!) Or even sexuality: that has nothing to do here! Isnt that kind of stuff supposed to be moderated, since ST is targeted to young pple? Cmon: be nice and do whatever u want, that's your private life and WE DONT GIVE A [bleep], but if you want to be respected, you have to respect the others too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustHaveDS9 Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 Call me crazy, but wouldn't calling attention to the LACK of a character of a particular race/gender/preference be just as biased as calling attention to the existance of one? If people were really race/gen/sexpref-neutral, then the need for "type quotas" would be just as offensive as leaving some types out. Saying that a show needs a gay character to be successful would be bringing discriminatory attention towards that character. In other words, treating that character differently. How would you feel if someone was forming a group of people and said to you, "Join our group because we need a gay person"? Congrats, you've been singled out because of your sexual preference, just in a way people don't normally think about. If everyone was truely "tolerant", these things wouldn't even be discussed, much less thought about. In my opinion, both sides of the argument are too consumed by their own biases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elderbear Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 Moderator's Message Allow me to remind people of the Posting Rules, particularly rule #2 2. No foul, obscene, or demeaning language. -- Let's try to keep the site 'family friendly'. If you notice that a few posts disappeared, they were way over the line ... and didn't have even the redeeming value of contributing to discussion. The free exchange of ideas? YES! Middle-school locker room humor? Take it to PM (and CC me) ... thanks! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vektram Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 snip topic # 1 Gay Marriage - how this is destroying families is beyond me . Maybe the 60 % divorce rate has a bigger impact on destroying marriage as an institution than does the inclusion of gays to be allowed marriage .to win this point map out precisely how gay marriage is a bad thing with out just saying it is as the neo cons often do snip Australian Prime Minister John Howard said when the parliament here passed the law that prevented gay marriage: "Mariage is the union between a man and a woman... to furthur the human race." or something to that effect. Horse shit. :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenofNine Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 topic # 1 Gay Marriage - how this is destroying families is beyond me . Maybe the 60 % divorce rate has a bigger impact on destroying marriage as an institution than does the inclusion of gays to be allowed marriage .to win this point map out precisely how gay marriage is a bad thing with out just saying it is as the neo cons often do The argument here is not that Gay Marriage is bad, but that allowing Gays to marry destroys what the conservatives call "the sanctity of marriage." This is often and usually a religion-based argument, and as such, we shouldn't be so quick to blast it. Imagine someone tells you they're Christian, and specifically Catholic. They believe that not only is the Communion wafer blessed, but it has been transsubstantiated into the body of Christ. Would you argue that they're wrong? No, because you'd argue for freedom of religion and belief, right? Well, to them, this is exactly the same thing, a religious belief: gay marriage is not real marriage. It's a very important step to get convservatives to proivide all the material and economic benefits of marriage (so-called civil unions) with the exception of allowing it to be called Marriage. You wouldn't call eating your lunch Communion, would you? Because it's not the same thing. To the religious, at least to some, marriage is the joining of a man and a woman. While I personally think marriage can easily be redefined as a joining of two persons, they do not, and I don't take issue with their argument. They have a right to their belief, even if some are simply homophobic, some are true believers. What do you say to them? topic #3 gay trek / gay characters on TV - if it sells to the target audience then go with it if it is opposed by the target audience then scrap it . no one should have a culture forced on them either. this will breed resentment and back lash .the producers no if it is something that will help or hurt thier ratings with all the testing they do . Absolute agreement. With narrowcasting, Gay-themed shows are extant: L Word, Queer as Folk, etc. Would you throw a Klingon on the show just to please the sci-fi fanatics? No. Then don't put Gay charcters on Star Trek unless you want one, rather than to cave to a minority pressure. Protecting minorities in a social/governmental situation is one thing, providing population demogrpahics in television just to avoid arguments in forums like this... pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 lol yeah I think its probably better letting this thread die, end of the day we all have views on this, and rightly so what has this got to do with star trek. I for one wont be posting anything more about this anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcant Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 Moderator's Message Allow me to remind people of the Posting Rules, particularly rule #2 2. No foul, obscene, or demeaning language. -- Let's try to keep the site 'family friendly'. If you notice that a few posts disappeared, they were way over the line ... and didn't have even the redeeming value of contributing to discussion. The free exchange of ideas? YES! Middle-school locker room humor? Take it to PM (and CC me) ... thanks! :D I find it interesting that it's the childish humour. puns and double entendre posts that have been deleted, yet the most graphic and glowing eulogy to gay sex, check out Tolvers on page 5 has been left! I find it strange the only sexual survivor topic was posted by a gay man, do we see an agenda here? or just yet another example of double standards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcant Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 In case anyones interested in what I mean And worst of all, since being male I know better than females what a good blowjob is supposed to feel like, and being with another gay male I recieve the BEST blowjobs whenever I want them. Good blowjobs being something generaly denied to straight men. So from MY point of view, whenever I get ragged on by a straight male for my being gay it just reenforces my own sence of superiority. I am happily married, in good health, and have no children to asorbe my income. What mere words from a breeder can do me harm? Thus you dont see me defending myself on a constant basis, for I have no need to. I would perfer that the subject stay on 'Gay Trek' as opposed to speculation upon my personal sexual proclivities. If you must know I will tell you this much, even after 20 years I still have great sex on average of every 4 days. If you are going to edit humour out maybe you should check out posts that blatently break the family friendly rules you claim to maintain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezigues Posted May 14, 2005 Share Posted May 14, 2005 Thank you, Elderbear, for helping keep that place a trek forum! Mcant seems to have found some other stuff to add to the trash can: He's more brave than me, I didnt want to read all the topic just to chase that kind of stuff... If I may, one thing strikes me: Mainly, the gay/not gay thing is about being accepted and respected. Since this is internet and we dont see each other, no one knew there was gay people here! As we dont really know who is male or female in here. The acceptation and respect was complete since no one knew who was gay and who wasn't, so why the hell starting to make posts about it? Once again, we dont care... A shame since if you had refrained from talking about that on this Star Trek board, no one would have made any kind of discrimination at all! People are that way: we dont all have the same point of view. Some are gay, some like gays, some dont, some just dont care (me, for example) No one can force people to like gays or not: each of us makes his/her own opinion based upon what he/she encounters in his/her life. In here, we (and therefore you, gay people too) are all equals and free of all kind of discriminations: why the hell did you feel the need to make it change? Personaly, I dont want to be a part of it: I dont know who's gay or not (and I dont care, once again)... and I want it to remain that way. Mainly because what brings me here is the fact that I'm some kind of Mulder: I want to believe! In sci-fi, ufos, all that kind of stuff. Not at all any aspect of sexuality. My sexuality is mine and is absolutely none of anyone's business... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammichi Posted May 14, 2005 Share Posted May 14, 2005 why does it matter, if someone is gay they are gay, it does not make them less of a person, and anyone who says it does, is less of a person themselves........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oma Posted May 14, 2005 Share Posted May 14, 2005 why does it matter' date=' if someone is gay they are gay, it does not make them less of a person, and anyone who says it does, is less of a person themselves...........[/quote'] You're not talking about little people, are you? :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammichi Posted May 14, 2005 Share Posted May 14, 2005 no.......as far as I know.......I'm not..........although, your avatar scares me a little, I'm gunna have nightmares for a week now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcazant Posted May 15, 2005 Share Posted May 15, 2005 Think of it this way: The humans in the Star Trek series alway try to better themselves. Racism, poverty and other major issues from the current society have been corrected to better mankind. Could it not be possible that homosexuality was eliminated as well, while humans evolved? P.S. I am not implying that there is anything wrong with homosexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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