Daleks Vs the BORG

[GorunNova]

Thats why i say that Dr Who time traveling is unrealistic. If say someone did go into the past. They can not be protected from the paradox they will cause. Since Star Trek is one of the closest Sci Fi that actually talks some real science (Not Voyagers Technobabble). Since we are talking about AVP kinda fight we have to put the battle in a real functioning universe were real science applies.

Heh... don't fool yourself. Much of Star Trek physics isn't all that much closer than the Doctor Who stuff... just a lot more detailed ^^

 

The TARDIS, as an example, works by removing itself from space-time and reinserting itself elsewhere... effectively disappearing from one spot and reentering another. This sort of transportation isn't unknown in the Star Trek universe... and is far superior to the warp drives and their rather hacked methods of travelling in time... The rationale they use for the TARDIS is that it travels through higher dimensions to 'side step' conventional space time and reenter it elsewhere.

 

The advantage that borg have

 

1: Collective mind of them all. Say what you like about Daleks being good but they are indivudals and has shown by the Dr who Finnally they still have the weakness of Individuality. The Borg are like SETI@Home. Just one and you don't have much. Get all of them and you a supercomputer expect the Brain is a thousand times more powerfull then CPUS.

 

2: Dalek weapons. Say what you want i seen it fire that laser thingy. It can be adapted to beacuse it is energy.

 

3: There damn slow. I seen them walk on smooth surface and man are they slow. Also in the stairs. Man is it horribly slow. The borg can take shots at it while it is hovering up.

 

4: There scanning methods. The borg can use there sensors to detect the creature inside (has any Dr who fan can tell you). It is a matter of either beaming them up or adjusting there weapons to damage the life forms.

 

1) You still haven't adressed the point of how the Borg would deal with having their connections disrupted... Seti@Home, like the Borg, is useless if they can't communicate with the central server. Daleks work great individualy and better in groups. The Borg's utter reliance on networked functioning is their fundamental flaw, and the Daleks would happily use that flaw.

 

2) ... they can still change their weapons when the old ones become useless. The Dalek weapon has changed even within the original Doctor Who...

 

3) Not in their ships, they aren't, and I've seen eps where the individual daleks are wheeling along at pretty fast speeds ^^' Heh, from what I've seen of the Borg, the drones don't seem to be in any rush themselves.

 

4) Daleks have personal shields, and teleporters can't go through shields. Since most of the Dalek is their battle armor, they can have very strong force fields, and given that they've mastered time travel at a level FAR beyond both the Federation and the Borg (possibly on par with the 30 somethingth century Federation guys that have popped up occasionally in Voyager etc.), it is fairly easy to assume that their other technology is similarly advanced.

 

Might I remind you of the new episode Dalek? Each individual dalek is capable of processing, understanding, and modifying a new being's genetic data from scratch in -seconds-, even with the ability to mesh such data with it's own DNA... how long does it take a Federation ship computer to do a similar feat? They may look primitive, but there's a hell of a lot under the hood, so to speak.

 

Maybe talking about them vs. the Borg of the Star Trek setting isn't a good match... I'd say match them against the time-travelling Federation of the future. The Borg of the Star Trek universe just aren't a match on anything but a unit-to-unit level... except individual drones would be helpless, because of communications disruption.

 

Hmmm... if they were in the Star Trek universe, I wonder how long it would take the Daleks to rig themselves up with personal transporters? It seems far easier to do that sort of thing in the Star Trek universe than the Doctor Who one...

 

Edit: http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~abr/drwho/tardis/type40/node3.html

... an insane amount of info about the Tardis from in-series references...

[thegoonden]

I don't think it would be the war, more a case of the Daleks destroy the BORG and then the Doctor helps Starfleet get rid of the Daleks.

ROFLMMFAO

sticky this to the top of the thread. Case Closed!.

 

Oh, and RE: slow. two words.....

.Transolar disc.

the older/newer-but-less-evolved (it's VERY hard to know, the swine have died off and return so often accross the whole universe of time and space), did not always have the personal flying capability. Originally, in every format BUT the cheap ass BBC, they ha things called "transolar discs", a small podium like affair that served as everything from local hopper to interplanetary (and, in extremis, interSTELLAR...yawn) travel.

It would appear that our current "ultimate evo" Dalek, has adapted the tech of the transolar disc into the casing. And before you scoff, look at a modern radio, and it's equiv from 10 million years ago.....oh wait, sorry, WE aint been about as long as they have....err 100 years ago.

[Furious]

Thats why i say that Dr Who time traveling is unrealistic. If say someone did go into the past. They can not be protected from the paradox they will cause. Since Star Trek is one of the closest Sci Fi that actually talks some real science (Not Voyagers Technobabble). Since we are talking about AVP kinda fight we have to put the battle in a real functioning universe were real science applies.

Heh... don't fool yourself. Much of Star Trek physics isn't all that much closer than the Doctor Who stuff... just a lot more detailed ^^

 

The TARDIS, as an example, works by removing itself from space-time and reinserting itself elsewhere... effectively disappearing from one spot and reentering another. This sort of transportation isn't unknown in the Star Trek universe... and is far superior to the warp drives and their rather hacked methods of travelling in time... The rationale they use for the TARDIS is that it travels through higher dimensions to 'side step' conventional space time and reenter it elsewhere.

 

The advantage that borg have

 

1: Collective mind of them all. Say what you like about Daleks being good but they are indivudals and has shown by the Dr who Finnally they still have the weakness of Individuality. The Borg are like SETI@Home. Just one and you don't have much. Get all of them and you a supercomputer expect the Brain is a thousand times more powerfull then CPUS.

 

2: Dalek weapons. Say what you want i seen it fire that laser thingy. It can be adapted to beacuse it is energy.

 

3: There damn slow. I seen them walk on smooth surface and man are they slow. Also in the stairs. Man is it horribly slow. The borg can take shots at it while it is hovering up.

 

4: There scanning methods. The borg can use there sensors to detect the creature inside (has any Dr who fan can tell you). It is a matter of either beaming them up or adjusting there weapons to damage the life forms.

 

1) You still haven't adressed the point of how the Borg would deal with having their connections disrupted... Seti@Home, like the Borg, is useless if they can't communicate with the central server. Daleks work great individualy and better in groups. The Borg's utter reliance on networked functioning is their fundamental flaw, and the Daleks would happily use that flaw.

 

2) ... they can still change their weapons when the old ones become useless. The Dalek weapon has changed even within the original Doctor Who...

 

3) Not in their ships, they aren't, and I've seen eps where the individual daleks are wheeling along at pretty fast speeds ^^' Heh, from what I've seen of the Borg, the drones don't seem to be in any rush themselves.

 

4) Daleks have personal shields, and teleporters can't go through shields. Since most of the Dalek is their battle armor, they can have very strong force fields, and given that they've mastered time travel at a level FAR beyond both the Federation and the Borg (possibly on par with the 30 somethingth century Federation guys that have popped up occasionally in Voyager etc.), it is fairly easy to assume that their other technology is similarly advanced.

 

Might I remind you of the new episode Dalek? Each individual dalek is capable of processing, understanding, and modifying a new being's genetic data from scratch in -seconds-, even with the ability to mesh such data with it's own DNA... how long does it take a Federation ship computer to do a similar feat? They may look primitive, but there's a hell of a lot under the hood, so to speak.

 

Maybe talking about them vs. the Borg of the Star Trek setting isn't a good match... I'd say match them against the time-travelling Federation of the future. The Borg of the Star Trek universe just aren't a match on anything but a unit-to-unit level... except individual drones would be helpless, because of communications disruption.

 

Hmmm... if they were in the Star Trek universe, I wonder how long it would take the Daleks to rig themselves up with personal transporters? It seems far easier to do that sort of thing in the Star Trek universe than the Doctor Who one...

 

Edit: http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~abr/drwho/tardis/type40/node3.html

... an insane amount of info about the Tardis from in-series references...

 

 

Kid almost Everything in a star trek starship is possible Unlike Dr Who. Pick up the Physics of of Star Trek sometimes. Also has far has we know about dimensions there are only 4. 1-D,2-D,3-d and Time (the fourth). So the tardis is improbable.

 

1: For a Dalek to sever the connection between ALL of the borg in a single cube it has to get rid of the viniclium. Now how would a tin case like a Dalek enter the Heart of a Cube and come up unscathed? So severing the connection is hard unless the dalek is suicdal and it's useless since it only affects the single Cube.

 

2: Lol i would like to see this battle.

 

Dalek:

Dalek

2 borgs fall down

The borg have adapted to the weapon

Dalek: Yo guys give me a few minutes to change my rod.

 

3: The Drone's speed depends on who they are after. Most of the time we see them going after humans. Humans tire easily in a Borg enivornment (it has more humidity and is hotter).

 

4: All things aren't impervious.

 

 

About the time travel. Has i said again Time travel is impossible to be utilised unless you want to iniate a Paradox.

 

1: You go back in time

2: You kill your father

3: You then won't exist

4: You won't go back in time beacuse you don't exist

5: Your father is stil alive then

6: You exist

7: Start at 1

 

Thats Time travel for you. So leave it out. Thats probably the only reason why the Borg went back in time only once. They were probably going to send all of the info they had to the borg of timeline.

[Adahiyast]

Kid almost Everything in a star trek starship is possible Unlike Dr Who. Pick up the Physics of of Star Trek sometimes. Also has far has we know about dimensions there are only 4. 1-D,2-D,3-d and Time (the fourth). So the tardis is improbable.

Actually there are 11 dimensions. (Real Physics)

And this tardis crap sounds exactly like space folding technology which exists within startrek. There were experiments first done with it in the 22nd century with that kind of transporter technology, and have continued to curent day trek. Infact voyager considered using the technology to get home once, but couldn't adapt it to their ship's systems.

 

1: For a Dalek to sever the connection between ALL of the borg in a single cube it has to get rid of the viniclium. Now how would a tin case like a Dalek enter the Heart of a Cube and come up unscathed? So severing the connection is hard unless the dalek is suicdal and it's useless since it only affects the single Cube.

you can block individual transmissions to a couple of drones for all those dr who fans thinking of that, but you cant block drone to cube links on a cube, or between cubes basically the network is just to redundent

 

 

3: The Drone's speed depends on who they are after. Most of the time we see them going after humans. Humans tire easily in a Borg enivornment (it has more humidity and is hotter).

 

Every seen a borg scuttler? Or some of their 9 foot high assimilated bad arse drones? LoL...the borg have assimilated dogs for christ sake. The only drones you ever see are standard crappy humanoids, the borg have specialist drones that are deployable.

 

About the time travel. Has i said again Time travel is impossible to be utilised unless you want to iniate a Paradox.

 

1: You go back in time

2: You kill your father

3: You then won't exist

4: You won't go back in time beacuse you don't exist

5: Your father is stil alive then

6: You exist

7: Start at 1

 

Thats Time travel for you. So leave it out. Thats probably the only reason why the Borg went back in time only once. They were probably going to send all of the info they had to the borg of timeline.

 

I think we should just rule the time travel idea out alltogether because it wouldn't happen fullstop...the daleks would cease to exist from Q/federation agent intervention. SO NO FREAKING TIMETRAVEL as stated above your silly wipe them out in the past method wont work in star trek.

[foxtrot]

No no the borg CANT lose because if even one dalek gets assimialted then they know EVERYTHING he knows and well its game friggin over... and like the borg could just keep coming all day long... i mean the Dalek's are not 8472 so yeah

[Terme]

you cant get a paradox in time especally in the past coz it is set PERMERNATLY!!!! the past cannot be changed, but time travel can be possable in these circumstances with no paradox because you have already done all these things in the past already.

 

OH yeah and as to everything in startrek being possable, as long as someone has an idea of something its possable your only limited to the technology youve thought of science merly caught up to the trekies a little bit, (prob coz the damn scientists were damn trekies too and went hay sweet idea lets do it)

[petra1989]

I asked this question to some of my friends at work. I think you will like some of the respondes. Or think I work with very weird people.

 

Borg will win, they have a better budget for special effects.

 

Forget the Borg, they're a cake walk. What about the Daleks and the Jem'Hadar? Any species that took the Romulians, Klingons, and the Federation to only bring them to a stalemate, is a far more worthy adversary for the Daleks.

 

Sontarians would have an easier time defeating the Borg, because of their ability to produce so many soliders (a million or so) in a very short time. The Borg would start to assimulate the Sontarians only to find out that they are devoting all of their energy to that. The Sontarians would just keep producing soliders and pretty soon swarm over them like a plauge of bacteria.

 

Daleks would capture a Cyberman, leave him to be assimulated. The Borg would now have the Cybermen weakness. Gold. All the Daleks would have to do is hit them with Gold powder.

 

Ok thats about it.

[Adahiyast]

Daleks would capture a Cyberman, leave him to be assimulated. The Borg would now have the Cybermen weakness. Gold. All the Daleks would have to do is hit them with Gold powder.

 

Ok thats about it.

 

Yeah weird people, rofl...i just dont really see that happening, however whats more likely is a giant tribble coming along and gobbling up the entire space time continium, imploding the omniverse in its wake and destroying all 11 dimensions, then doing a big fat turd on your head =P.

[Fenriswolf]

If this even sniffs of turning into a Doctor Who Vs Star Trek slanging match from any side, I will shut this thread down faster than it takes the Doctor to say Jelly Baby.

 

By all means discuss, but do not demean either show.

 

And if you apply Elastic History to time travel it then becomes a lot more viable. We are here to have fun not to discuss if time travel is possible in any universe. Doctor Who is not built on real science and neither is Star Trek for that matter - there are very few shows that are built on real science.

 

You want to discuss the theories of time travel and so forth, do it in a thread in the science forum.

[taq22]

As I have already explained, YOU CAN"T ASSIMILATE A DALEK. See my previous posts for the reason why. Also, the Daleks wouldn't use time-travel to defeat such an inferior race, as I've also stated before.

 

I see that many people are trying to assert that Star Trek is more realistic than Doctor Who. Rubbish. Just look at the way starfleet crew use transmats (transporters) all the time with ease. In real life, this could never happen. In both Doctor Who and Enterprise, that kind of technology is unreliable and easily tampered with.

[Fenriswolf]

I believe you posted at the same time as me there tag22...but I advise everyone to read my post on page 10.

[Adahiyast]

In both Doctor Who and Enterprise' date=' that kind of technology is unreliable and easily tampered with.[/quote']

Yeah as enterprise is set 200+ years before TNG, DS9, VOY...i'd expect it to be unreliable! And star trek is based on real phsyics, they have whole books on the subject. Current day physicists are already transporting photons, single atoms, etc. The ideas for the technology in star trek were always based on believable current day physics theories and facts. Despite the writers sometimes swaying off with their imaginations a bit i think star trek is actually one of the fewest scifi's that comes close to acurately portraying a possible future. For example battlestar galactica new series looks very realistic you might argue...but some of their medical technology is more backward then our own, lol. my point is there always seems to be plenty of inconsitencies in scifi when it comes to being realistic in the science deparment. star trek comes closest. and if you really want to argue that out, take it to the star trek section and go...explain this, and ill give you a real life physics explanation in 10 mins ;).

 

Resistance is futile Daleks!

[Fenriswolf]

*zap*

 

*fizzle*

 

*bang*

 

If you really want to talk unreliable technology then the TARDIS is about the best example. It requires five other Timelords to operate and the Doctor does it on his own, he dances around that hexagonal console like a maniac sometimes.

 

The TARDIS itself decides often where it wants to go, he very often ends up in serious danger because of that and it's prone to just shutting down at the drop of a hat.

 

I have yet to see an Enterprise crewmember perform percussive maintainance with a hammer :)

 

Although I am often highly amused at how they love to break the shiny new ship, even before the wrapping's come off the consoles and controls. That's always been part of the charm of Star Trek for me and come to think of it - a lot of science fiction shows.

 

 

[GorunNova]

Kid almost Everything in a star trek starship is possible Unlike Dr Who. Pick up the Physics of of Star Trek sometimes. Also has far has we know about dimensions there are only 4. 1-D,2-D,3-d and Time (the fourth). So the tardis is improbable.

Not a big fan of quantum mechanics and ANY theoretical physics since the 50s, I see... many of the writers of Doctor Who weren't that dumb, you know.. ^^'

 

1: For a Dalek to sever the connection between ALL of the borg in a single cube it has to get rid of the viniclium. Now how would a tin case like a Dalek enter the Heart of a Cube and come up unscathed? So severing the connection is hard unless the dalek is suicdal and it's useless since it only affects the single Cube.

It transmits a -signal-, and if you know what medium the signal is being sent it can be -blocked- or -scrambled-. The Daleks are good at this sort of thing, and they wouldn't have to go near the viniclium to do it. This is the biggest, and terminal, flaw of the Borg, and one I'm amazed that the Federation didn't make use of on more than individual Borg units.

 

2: Lol i would like to see this battle.

 

Dalek:

Dalek

2 borgs fall down

The borg have adapted to the weapon

Dalek: Yo guys give me a few minutes to change my rod.

... then the dalek units would be caught, they would self destruct, probably taking out nearby drones, the main dalek force would realize their weapons no longer work, and they'd come up with a new weapon, or stick to ship-to-ship combat, coming up with stronger and stronger weapons.

 

3: The Drone's speed depends on who they are after. Most of the time we see them going after humans. Humans tire easily in a Borg enivornment (it has more humidity and is hotter).

Why would daleks go on ship at all? They're at a disadvantage on a Borg ship, so it would probably be ship-to-ship or drones on the Dalek ship (assuming they can even get on)

 

About the time travel. Has i said again Time travel is impossible to be utilised unless you want to iniate a Paradox.

 

1: You go back in time

2: You kill your father

3: You then won't exist

4: You won't go back in time beacuse you don't exist

5: Your father is stil alive then

6: You exist

7: Start at 1

 

Thats Time travel for you. So leave it out. Thats probably the only reason why the Borg went back in time only once. They were probably going to send all of the info they had to the borg of timeline.

 

So the Daleks don't go back in time and kill their ancestors. Davros is safe, and they wipe out other species. Also, since this is the Star Trek universe we're talking about, they simply make chronoton fields a standard part of their ship and colony defenses, and they're perfectly safe from any destructive changes they make. Anyways, I seriosly don't think the Daleks would have to resort to time travel to defeat the Borg in the first place.

 

The time travel that the Borg and the Federation use is very simple, they can't really move while they do it, and there's no way for them to know what -exactly- is on the other side of the trip... risky as hell.

[GorunNova]

*zap*

 

*fizzle*

 

*bang*

 

If you really want to talk unreliable technology then the TARDIS is about the best example. It requires five other Timelords to operate and the Doctor does it on his own, he dances around that hexagonal console like a maniac sometimes.

Heh... when's the last time you saw a Dalek time machine require a hammer? Sheer quality, I tell you... although the decorations are pretty gaudy ;)

 

I think the Doctor snuck in and programmed a 'stupidity circuit' into the Daleks that only fires in his presence. It's the only way I can think of that he's won so many times ^^'

 

... and the Doctor's TARDIS doesn't count... it's junk even by Time Lord standards. It's a beat up, ancient old Type 40 on it's last legs (wow... those 'last legs' have really held up, though...) and it doesn't even have a working chameleon circuit ^_^

 

Edit: And I still don't get where that 'requiring 5 time lords to run' thing came from... where was that mentioned? I've asked elsewhere about it...

 

Edit 2: Don't get me wrong... I like BOTH setting immensely... I just think the Daleks are a superior force to the Borg... if they can kick so much arse in a universe with such strict laws of time and the Time Lords, how much more would they kick arse in one without them?

[Fenriswolf]

Doctor Who, confidential (The 5 other Timelords) btw.

[GorunNova]

Doctor Who' date=' confidential (The 5 other Timelords) btw.[/quote']

 

Ahh... thanks ^^ Aye, that'll do... that'll do.

[Fenriswolf]

IIRC it's the Doc Who confidential that talks about the TARDIS. Eccleston mentions something about it.

[thegoonden]

In both Doctor Who and Enterprise' date=' that kind of technology is unreliable and easily tampered with.[/quote']

Yeah as enterprise is set 200+ years before TNG, DS9, VOY...i'd expect it to be unreliable! And star trek is based on real phsyics, they have whole books on the subject. Current day physicists are already transporting photons, single atoms, etc. The ideas for the technology in star trek were always based on believable current day physics theories and facts. Despite the writers sometimes swaying off with their imaginations a bit i think star trek is actually one of the fewest scifi's that comes close to acurately portraying a possible future. For example battlestar galactica new series looks very realistic you might argue...but some of their medical technology is more backward then our own, lol. my point is there always seems to be plenty of inconsitencies in scifi when it comes to being realistic in the science deparment. star trek comes closest. and if you really want to argue that out, take it to the star trek section and go...explain this, and ill give you a real life physics explanation in 10 mins ;).

 

Resistance is futile Daleks!

 

 

cool, well, if you just send me some di-lithium ( doesn't seem to be in my periodic table, which is odd cos the "physics of start trek" is real. must be out of date), and some polyferenide, I'll knock one up.

 

If the physics is real, why is it that less than 1 million miles from where they make it, NASA still strap braze men and women to controlled explosions in order to put satellites 200 miles away. "Trash hauling, the final frontier".

 

as I sai, we only understant ST science cos it's so moronic, OH MY GOD it's only 400 years ahead of us LOL 400 years....a blip. You need a civilization hundreds of millions of years old to work out REALLY cool tech.

 

And as I said "you can't tell good tech from magic"

 

 

it's really simple, the BORG ALL WANT TO BE HUGH AND SEVEN.

they are ponces, limp wristed little pansies.

 

 

Oh, and no tv sci fi is accurate.

explain the following.... ( well you offerred)

The enterprise makes a noise as it goes by.

What lights it up?

why is it lit all over in planetary orbit insteadn of the sunward side being a blazing white and the leeward being pitch black.

the beams of the projected energy weapons used are visible in clean air an in a vacum.

How did the USS enterprise ncc1701 under james t kirk reach all those planet in 5 years when most of those mentioned would take several decades to reach at the maximum speed of a constellation(or constitution, I stopp wtching so long ago) class ship....(warp6 or warp 8 for brief periods....on the original warp scale as published in the starfleet technical manual, warp 8 is only 256C...giving a maximum distance travelled in 5 years of about 2500 lightyears)

the great barrier would take several centuries to reach, not one rather dull movie ( tho I LOVED "what does god need with a starship")

 

Answer those, and I'll get some more, you DID offer, I would not want you to make yourself appear dishonest of boastful.

 

 

You want to see real Sci fi....there has been ONE example.

2001.

 

[taq22]

In both Doctor Who and Enterprise' date=' that kind of technology is unreliable and easily tampered with.[/quote']

Yeah as enterprise is set 200+ years before TNG, DS9, VOY...i'd expect it to be unreliable! And star trek is based on real phsyics, they have whole books on the subject. Current day physicists are already transporting photons, single atoms, etc. The ideas for the technology in star trek were always based on believable current day physics theories and facts. Despite the writers sometimes swaying off with their imaginations a bit i think star trek is actually one of the fewest scifi's that comes close to acurately portraying a possible future. For example battlestar galactica new series looks very realistic you might argue...but some of their medical technology is more backward then our own, lol. my point is there always seems to be plenty of inconsitencies in scifi when it comes to being realistic in the science deparment. star trek comes closest. and if you really want to argue that out, take it to the star trek section and go...explain this, and ill give you a real life physics explanation in 10 mins ;).

 

Resistance is futile Daleks!

 

I was actually pointing out that a teleport can't be 100% reliable, as the more teleports get more advanced, so do tools for hampering them.

 

As I belive thegoonden said, Star Trek is far from realistic to anyone with half a brain and even a GCSE in Science.