GorunNova Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 I guess I'm simply a holder to #1... but I also consider time/space so vast that it really doesn't matter that things are predetermined, since we can never exactly find out how it IS predetermined... Edit: Scratch the 'predetermined' moniker... I think past, present, and future all exist in all forms... so in a strict since 'predetermination' is meaningless... everything is determined, and everything -is-... 'pre' and 'post' is an illusion... at least from my perspective ^^ In the model I propose, you can go back, change things as much as you want... but the fact that none of these changes were present when you left -guarantees- that those changes won't be there when you get back... you are merely fulfilling the requirement of an alternate reality where you are present in the past and changing things. If you want those changes to stick, all you have to do is not go back to where you came from, and stay in the reality you changed. It's still not yours... but it does have the changes you made. Note, that I -don't- mean that you are jumping tracks by your actions... instead, your actions in the past are still determined, and the fact that you intervene is simply a property of that reality you chose to visit... also determined. *sigh* Determined is a bad word for it too... since nobody is 'determining' it... Edit 2: I like mine better than yours because it lacks paradoxes ^_^... but that's simply my preference. Edit 3: Even though my model seems to lack 'free choice'... it really doesn't matter since it's impossible to know exactly what choices will be made... and therefore those choices are unknowable, even if they are to be done. If it's all 'pre' determined, it doesn't matter because that determination can't be isolated, and therefore could be anything. Edit 4: Sorry about all the edits, but it occurs to me that true time travel is impossible according to this model of mine... the best one can do is isolate a reality that is arbitrarily close to a chosen past... but NOT the past. It is also unlikely that the traveller could find his way back to the same reality he left, being unable to isolate it exactly... just travel back to yet another reality arbitrarily close to but not quite his starting point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 On Edit 2: Wrong, your model does not lack paradoxes. What happens, for instance, when the timetravelling you stays in the changed reality and jumps forward to the place on the timeline he is from (still in the changed reality)? Will there be two of him, since this wasn't the reality where he travelled through time? On Edit 3: Free choice is the basis of reality as we know it...at least the way I see things. Predetermination requires a driving force - something/someone must have decided where things would eventually go. This implies some form of God. Personally, I do believe in the christian God - whose greatest gift to humanity was, indeed, free choice. But let's not make this a religious debate :p On Edit 4: Time travel will inevitably create logical fallacies and paradoxes - this does not make the consept faulty, however. Remember that time travel is beyond what we understand of physical reality at present. We don't know if it's possible (but manipulation of time is possible according to Einstein's Theory of Relativity), neither do we know if it's possible. As long as this is uncertain, I think it's wise to challenge our minds with the possibilities presented by such technology. And of course, it all makes for good entertainment ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 On Edit 2: Wrong, your model does not lack paradoxes. What happens, for instance, when the timetravelling you stays in the changed reality and jumps forward to the place on the timeline he is from (still in the changed reality)? Will there be two of him, since this wasn't the reality where he travelled through time? Probably, yes. The thing is... it isn't a paradox, because it isn't two of himself, but two different hims. It will be a different person. Where is the paradox in that? On Edit 3: Free choice is the basis of reality as we know it...at least the way I see things. Predetermination requires a driving force - something/someone must have decided where things would eventually go. This implies some form of God. Personally, I do believe in the christian God - whose greatest gift to humanity was, indeed, free choice. But let's not make this a religious debate :p No, 'predetermination' in this sense only means things will happen as they are going to happen, because time is a form of space from this view. No God or gods need be involved. Free choice is maintained because what will happen can't be determined beforehand in the same timeline, and so it could be anything. It IS set in stone, but it is impossible, due to the uncertainty principle, to see the exact stone that corresponds to your own proper future only one that looks very, very close to it. Edit: Ugh... it's so difficult to try to talk about the structure of things without implying a builder or structurer... it's as if God is built straight into the English language -_-' Free choice isn't eliminated in this model even though everything is determined, simply because it's impossible to see how your own future will go, you can't be certain that any 'future' you visit is truly yours, and in fact it is pretty much guaranteed that the 'you' you will meet won't actually be the 'you' that is visiting... unless you return home, and then you pop by for a visit later on just as you remember. ^_^ On Edit 4: Time travel will inevitably create logical fallacies and paradoxes - this does not make the consept faulty, however. Remember that time travel is beyond what we understand of physical reality at present. We don't know if it's possible (but manipulation of time is possible according to Einstein's Theory of Relativity), neither do we know if it's possible. As long as this is uncertain, I think it's wise to challenge our minds with the possibilities presented by such technology. And of course, it all makes for good entertainment ^^ That is an assumption, a deliberate choice of an explanation WITH paradoxes over one without them. A model of 'time travel' (which it isn't, really, in this view) doesn't necessarily need to create logical fallacies or paradoxes. All I'm doing is taking what I know about theoretical physics, and trying to outline a paradoxless model for spacetime... feel free to disagree with it, but I'll explain why I think it's the case. Edit: I guess that time could really involve paradoxes... but since nothing in the other dimensions seems paradoxical, it seems rather messy to me... not to mention inconsistant. ^^' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendo001 Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 Time travel is a concept that we'd all like to use but unsure how things would change? The theory I have is that there is an infinate number of possiblites but if we change a possiblity (through means of vising the past) we are making a fracture in the space time continum and are exposing 2 timelines together which then either split back into themselves or merge together to create a 3rd (new) timeline, this is just a theory but who knows, we just dont have the science to know for sure. As for Einstein's theory of relativity, time is a curve and if you can bend it you could possibly see into the future(not sure on this). So i guess we have to just wait till we can time travel lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbb Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 A good episode indeed. Gotta love the time travel stories. I personally enjoy watching STIV: The Voyage Home on my computer from this site. It's great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbb Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Yahoo! I've been repromoted back to Commander. It's about time I get back through the ranks. It's hard now, just to advance in rank takes forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjnave Posted June 28, 2005 Author Share Posted June 28, 2005 So here's a spin on it. I just watched Voyager Season 5 - Relativity. In this they state that if you go back to the initial temporal incursion and remove it (make it so it never happens) then the timeline will be corrected. So then what about the multiple timeline theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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